glorydaz
Well-known member
Of course that's more nonsense. :chuckle:
ST. JOHN 11:26
- Thread starter Jacob
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Of course that's more nonsense. :chuckle:
I know I was kidding...they are asleep...dead...as He put it...
Waiting for their resurrection and reward...either to eternal life or annihilation...
glorydaz
Well-known member
Oh another cultist....soul sleepers abound around here.
Well, for you maybe.
For me to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Way before my body is resurrected.
For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather (that) to be absent from the body
There fixed it for you to say what you want it to say...
not sure how being absent from one place has us immediately anywhere else...transportation and shipping companies would go out of business...think of the cruise lines...oh ok your absence in Miami is to be present in Mexico...presto!!
Also not quite sure how to change the fact that a spirit does NOT need a building from Yah a house not made by hands...eternal...or that a spirit can NOT be clothed
We desire NOT to be unclothed but FURTHER CLOTHED and not naked...
I mean can a spirit be further clothed? Beyond our “earthly tents”...?
Can’t hug Him kiss Him hold His hand...or other loved ones there...can’t eat either...can’t pet the lion wolves and lambs...just floating around shouting “HOW LONG?!!”
I mean can spirits even wear that crown Paul says he will receive? 2 Tim 4:8
Maybe that’s why he says he will receive it on that Day...at His appearing? Not when he dies but when you know, when we put on the incorruptible...in the twinkling of an eye...
Yes I think we all would prefer rather to be absent the body (no not dead certainly nobody prefers to be dead I hope)...but rather to be present with the Lord...at the time Paul believed we who shall not sleep and those raised from the dead would be there covered in our NOW incorruptible clothes.
Paul knew how to say spirit in greek but I will continue to change what he said to make it say what you meant him to say and he forgot to say:
1 Cor 15:40 “There are celestial
1 Cor 15:44 “It is sown a natural body it is raised a
There NOW it says what you wish it to say as if Paul forgot to say it...
No mention of spirits continuing after death...Paul knew man was NOT immortal and to fear the One Who can destroy the Soul...and have His Spirit returned to Himself...
You echo other Gnostics that wished to avoid the physical body and material matter...
1 Cor 15:48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.
So how is that heavenly Man? Spirit only? Without body...physical body...or was He raised with a physical one to cling to, to touch with a disbelieving finger , to digest food eaten?
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typical of you Pharisees and Romans attempting to slander or worse...you don’t let up...we covered this already...I copy Paul as he copied Christ...
“But this I confess to you, that according to the WAY which they call a SECT so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets” Acts 24:14
Rome too called the early church a cult...persecuted it as well...
“...what was certainly established by the early fourth century was the phenomenon of an emperor adopting and favouring a particular cult. What was different about Constantine’s ‘conversion’ was merely the particular cult to which he turned – the Christ-cult – where previous emperors had sought the support of pagan gods and heroes from Jove to Hercules.http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/romans/christianityromanempire_article_01.shtml
The irony...
really?...hadn’t noticed over the din of your MAD fanboyz...
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way 2 go
Well-known member
the truth is Christians will never see death
Joh 8:51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."
2Co 5:8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
Php 1:23 I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.
Fixed the verses to say what you want them to say...
But HalleluYah they won’t see death even if their friends or loved ones looking down from above... or ANYTHING after death and until in the twinkling of an eye they are transformed on the day of His appearing...when they are raised Spirit and Soul returned to a glorified body building of Yah and they are further clothed than when they were here...never naked...
Yahushua does not lie...His friend was asleep...dead...not on Abraham’s bosom or with parched tongue...
Or else imagine that gospel Lazarus could tell about the four days he was under the altar as a spirit crying “HOW LONG?!!” Or something anything...but NOTHING
In fact NOTHING from ANY of those come back from death...no testimony at all about their time asleep...
But as the heavenly Man is ...so also are those heavenly...1 Cor 15:48
As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.
So is the heavenly Man resurrected only as spirit?
Thus those heavenly are not only spirit...
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Rosenritter
New member
How does he tell us that we shall we ever be with the Lord?
Derf
Well-known member
I'm glad you went and looked up the Gill and Barnes quotations--I was going to do that if you didn't.
And I think your point is worth considering--that God can't be the God of the living, if the living are dead--but your scripture proves too much, and makes Jesus contradict Himself, since both "the dead" and "the living" are living in His story of the rich man, yet in your passage above He acknowledges that some are "dead": [Mat 22:31 ESV] And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God.
iow, God talks about the dead, therefore there must be some who are dead. And if believers are not included in the category of "dead", it must be unbelievers that are in that category--unbelievers like the rich man, which you maintain has all the characteristics of life in Jesus' story.
But Luke explains the phrasing--that it is not saying they are not currently dead, but in God's eyes they are not currently dead:
[Luk 20:38 NIV] He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive."
meaning God will resurrect them, which brings us back to the point of Jesus' reference "as touching the resurrection". In God's eyes, nobody should be considered dead if they are going to be raised. What's the alternative wording if they aren't really alive, but they are considered alive in God's eyes due to his promise of them waking up from "death"? They are "asleep".
There is one way to deconflict the problem of the righteous being "living" while dead and the unrighteous being "dead" while dead, even though still able to feel and communicate. That's to redefine the word "dead" to mean "outside of God's blessing", or "separated from God".
The problem with that second one is that either God's not everywhere at once (since it would be impossible to be separated from God), or God's presence has to mean something else. That's why I offered the first one.
So now "death" doesn't really mean "death", it means "separated from God", and "separated from God" doesn't really mean "where God isn't". Do you see the problem we're having? We keep having to redefine the words that we should all be able to understand, just so we can continue to maintain the doctrine of consciousness in death.
But if someone who is promised to be resurrected can be considered "alive", even though "dead", as in the Luke passage above, the other words don't all need to be redefined. What then would you call that state of a person that is currently dead, but is going to be alive later? Why can't we go with scriptures that call it "sleep"?
And it makes the most sense of Paul's comforting words:
[1Th 4:16 KJV] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[1Th 4:18 KJV] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
way 2 go
Well-known member
Jesus considered the Sadducees dead
Mat_8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
glorydaz
Well-known member
In the story of the rich man....the rich man is waiting. He does not have eternal life, and is not considered to be one of the living. He is dead in his sins.
I'm not having a problem. The words are being redefined by those who preach unconsciousness at death.
The resurrection speaks of the body. The dead in Christ shall rise first.....speaking once again of the body. Sleep is referring to the body.
Notice what our Lord says here. "They which.....obtain that world....neither can die anymore....are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection." That is who Luke is talking about....Luke 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.
Luke 20:34-36 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
And yet they were walking around and prolly burying the other real dead...which are asleep...both in Him and not in Him to resurrect and receive their rewards to life eternal or annihilation...
The dead are equal to angels when? Can neither die any more when? Being children of what?
AFTER the resurrection not when the physical body falls asleep and they are spirits floating about OR under the altar crying “HOW LONG?!!”
Is why even those that drank from His living waters and yet still died...yet will be resurrected as children of Yah and are not made spirits of Yah at death...
Derf
Well-known member
Good points! This may tell us that being "dead" doesn't really mean being dead. Let's look at Eph 2:
[Eph 2:1-3, 5, 7 KJV] 1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. ... 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
... 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. If you take the first verse all by itself, it appears that it is talking about a recent condition of death, that is alleviated by a current condition of life. But if you look at vs 2 and 3, it appears to be talking about a condition that allows for "walking", "conversation" (conduct), "lusting", and "desiring". I think this is explained in vs 3 when it says we "were by nature children of wrath". What is that wrath? Isn't it God's wrath that results from our disobedience, starting with Adam? And what did God say was the result of our disobedience? Death. If we are then "children of wrath", doesn't that mean that wrath is determined for us? Wrath/death is the end result?
[2Pe 3:9 NIV] The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
Isn't this a verse about God withholding His wrath, giving people a chance to repent--to avoid death?
Paul backs this idea up in Romans:
[Rom 2:4-6, 8 ESV] 4 Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? 5 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 He will render to each one according to his works: ... 8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.
These seem to say that God's punishment is delayed (fortunately for us). If His punishment is delayed, then it seems to me that when Paul talks about being "dead in trespasses and sins" and being "children of wrath", and he also says that wrath is yet to come, then we are "dead in our trespasses and sins" in a future sense--that we are promised death and God will fulfill that promise if we don't repent and believe in Jesus sacrifice for us.
And if we can be dead in a future sense, we can also be alive in a future sense--that we are promised life in Jesus Christ, even though we may die (which we do), was recognized by Jesus: [Jhn 11:25-26 KJV] 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
This seems to be saying some opposite things--that those who believe in Jesus will never die, but if they are dead, they will live again. I think rather it is saying that those who die will live again--"yet shall he live"-- and those that have begun that kind of living will never die--"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die".
This CAN'T mean that just because you believe, your soul will never die, because, like the rich man in your view, the soul of those that don't believe are not dead. And it allows for those that don't believe to not be dead yet, despite your assertion regarding the Sadducees.
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glorydaz
Well-known member
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Yes, there are souls "under the altar"....
Physically dead, and awaiting the resurrection of a spiritual body.
2 Corinthians 5:1-4
For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Notice, we are members of a family...in heaven and earth.
Ephesians 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
Philippians 3:20
20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Philippians 3:20
20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Derf
Well-known member
I can't find where the passage says the rich man is waiting.
glorydaz
Well-known member
That's what they do in the place of the dead.
The righteous for their spiritual body, and the unrighteous for judgement.
What did you think they're waiting for? Or do you think our Lord was merely leading people astray with outlandish stories about the afterlife?
Derf
Well-known member
I'm not sure why you are asking ME these questions. I wasn't the one saying he was waiting. Nor do I think the story is outlandish--it is exactly what we should expect to happen to a man that has been judged and found wanting. And if he is waiting, as you say, why is he waiting for judgment "in torments"? Isn't being "in torments" evidence of a judgment that has already occurred?
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. [Luk 16:23 KJV]
Are you telling me God prejudges people before He judges people? Of what purpose then is the "second" judgment, if the rich man has already been judged and is already tormented in the flame? Imagine God telling him, after he spends 2000 or so years being tormented in the flame, "Now come to the second judgment where I have already decided to throw you into hell where you will be tormented in the flame!"
Revelation 20 tells a different story--it says the dead are raised prior to being judged. This was shown to John by the Lord Jesus Christ. The rich man/Lazarus story has nothing about judgment, so we don't know whether the man was judged before he was tormented, but I rather think that's the case--Abraham seemed to think so:
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. [Luk 16:25 KJV]
Abraham gives absolutely NO indication of a future judgment of either the rich man or Lazarus, but he does talk like a judgment has already occurred.
In summary:
1. No evidence of waiting
2. No evidence of a coming judgment
3. There is evidence of a previous judgment
4. As mentioned previously, there is evidence of body parts (tongue and finger), which seem like they are only applicable to dead man if he's a resurrected dead man.
This seems to me to put the scene after the final judgment. I admit there's a time inconsistency, IF it is possible for someone (like Lazarus) to go to the man's brothers, though Abraham gives no indication that it is possible (his main point is that it would be ineffectual). If it is impossible for Lazarus to go back, then we could conclude that it is because the time for them to repent had expired, again putting this scene after the judgment.
NO NO NO...the rich man was waiting for further punishment and torment you know the REAL stuff...AFTER he has been really judged...or something
And Lazarus was merely waiting to get off Abraham’s bosom as I imagine it gets quite crowded after awhile...what with all those others waiting for the judgement piling on...
Derf
Well-known member
:thumb: