ST. JOHN 11:26

Rosenritter

New member
and the result of the discussion between Abraham and rich man was nothing gained,

but the result of Jesus telling us about it has been very informative of Hades

Maddicus 1:8 Thus saith the Preacher, in the grave where thou goest, there is knowledge, and there is device, and much conversation with friends, but the conversation therewith is as the chaff thrown to the wind, and profiteth nothing.
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
Amen. Can we do that?

Of course, II Timothy 2:15 says we can

Now, we have to learn how to do that, if we don't know how.

Even if we have been taught how, do we have the background experience of doing so to be able to do so consistently?

Are we willing to admit at times that we need more information or context or other bits of info to confidently and accurately draw a conclusion?

Jesus Christ is speaking of eternal life, which can be delayed or postponed or held in abeyance because of the death of a person.

But keeping in mind the promise of a resurrection of the just for non Christian believers,that is those no in this age of grace and for those in this age of grace, we have I Thessalonians 5:13-17 to comfort ourselves with in reference to death before the return of Christ
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Maddicus 1:8 Thus saith the Preacher, in the grave where thou goest, there is knowledge, and there is device, and much conversation with friends, but the conversation therewith is as the chaff thrown to the wind, and profiteth nothing.

This one can only mock what she is unable to understand. :chuckle:
 

Jacob

BANNED
Banned
Of course, II Timothy 2:15 says we can

Now, we have to learn how to do that, if we don't know how.

Even if we have been taught how, do we have the background experience of doing so to be able to do so consistently?

Are we willing to admit at times that we need more information or context or other bits of info to confidently and accurately draw a conclusion?

Jesus Christ is speaking of eternal life, which can be delayed or postponed or held in abeyance because of the death of a person.

But keeping in mind the promise of a resurrection of the just for non Christian believers,that is those no in this age of grace and for those in this age of grace, we have I Thessalonians 5:13-17 to comfort ourselves with in reference to death before the return of Christ

I mean, let's do that if we can.
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
Such was an evasion. This verse explains some of what they already knew about Sheol:
[Ecc 9:10 YLT] All that thy hand findeth to do, with thy power do, for there is no work, and device, and knowledge, and wisdom in Sheol whither thou art going.

But the story has the rich man devising a way for Lazarus to go to his brothers, and knowing still that he has brothers (not to mention that he is tormented in the flame), and Abraham exhibiting wisdom in his response to the rich man as well as knowing about the chasm between them. These are not additive descriptions, but contradictory descriptions.
steko already answered this here:

But, Solomon is speaking from the viewpoint of every man 'under the sun', that all is vanity/futility from that perspective.

The Bible is a progressive revelation.

Every 'consciousness cessationist' that I've ever read or talked with goes immediately to Ecclesisastes as their final authority, are satisfied, and then... look no further.
Then, they expect us 'mind/body dualists' to shut our mouths and also be satisfied with their 'annihilation/recreation' paradigm, when we've actually studied the rest of the Bible and have found that is teaches otherwise.
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
This one can only mock what she is unable to understand. :chuckle:

rosen has an untenable position of our spirits do not continue on after death ,
which they clearly do.

my proof :

Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
Luk 16:24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.'

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.

not outside of scripture Jesus tells us
1 rich man died
2 rich man buried , therefore body in the ground
3 rich man in Hades & fire therefore has to be his spirit or soul can't be his body
4 rich man is talking to Abraham who is dead & buried can't be Abraham's body either has to be his spirit

now
Rev 20:13 tells us that there are people that are raised from Hades which means there
has to be people in Hades

people are buried in graves & the Sea not in Hades
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
Wife: "Why didn't you tell me that you went to the bar? You told me you did not go to the bar, that you came straight home!"

Husband: "Be quiet woman! It's called progressive revelation."

using your life experiences for an analogy poor choice as The Bible
is not the history of drunk trying to get out of trouble with his wife
 

Derf

Well-known member
What are you trying to say here? If you're saying Paul and our Lord didn't understand the difference between sleep and physical death, you're wrong. They understood the difference between being physically dead.... yet alive while physically dead.

Samuel was alive while physically dead, for example.

Moses and Elijah were alive while physically dead, for example.

I expect both knew quite a bit about physical death and sleep, since both experienced both, I believe. And they seemed to link the two. Both Jesus and Paul used the word "sleep" as a euphemism for "death". On that basis alone, the cults could certainly be forgiven for misunderstanding that "death" is akin to a state of "sleeping".

Now it seems weird to me that a body that is decaying would be said to be "sleeping". A body that is completely burned to ashes seems to be very little like a body that is "sleeping". And a body that is dumped into the sea and eaten by fish or sharks or crabs, bears little resemblance to a body that is "asleep".

If, then, a person that is dead can be compared to a person that is asleep, what is the basis of that comparison? Is it the bodily state? or the state of the mind? If the bodily state, as I suggested above, the word doesn't seem to fit. But if it is a state of mind--the mind is not currently doing anything, perhaps--then "asleep" is a fitting adjective, don't you think?

We often think of the "mind" as the active part of a person, which communicates and perceives and experiences, through the body, at least in this life. We "see" with our eyes, but we "perceive" with our mind using the sight from our ours. We "talk" with our mouths, but we "communicate" with our minds directing our mouthal function. We sense with our tongues and ears and fingers (and eyes), but we "experience" with our minds. Sleep, for the most part, is a cessation of these communicative and perceptive activities. Death is also a cessation of these activities.

Why, then, is it a bad thing to say that when Jesus talks about death, when Paul talks about death, and when the Old Testament in many places talks about death, they all mean the cessation of communication and perception and experience, and they call it "sleep"?

Samuel, Elijah, and Moses all appeared in some form, but we don't have enough information to do more than make assumptions about what form that was--if a physical body of some sort, or a spiritual essence, perhaps. Nor do we know their state outside of those times when they had some kind of manifestation seen by the living people (Samuel to Saul and Elijah and Moses to the 3 apostles). I expect this aspect of manifestation is what is missing in God (if something could be missing in God), when it says He is "invisible" (Col 1:15). And what appeared to be required anytime a heavenly being appeared to someone on earth, whether it was as a burning bush, or three men on their way to Sodom, or a captain of the Lord's hosts, or even a snake in the Garden. We have a special suffix used to denote an appearance of a spirit-being to a human, "-ophany". And I don't know of too many theologians that use that suffix in regard to Samuel, Elijah, and Moses. We don't talk that way, usually.

Here's a place where someone is considering what the appearance of Moses really was:


With regard to Moses, on the other hand, we are a bit less certain: Some of theologians (notably, St. Thomas Aquinas) hold that Moses did not appear in his own body, but that it was only his soul which was present – the idea being that his soul would have made use of condensed air and dust for a bodily form. Others (Fr. Cornelius a’ Lapide) are inclined to think that Moses’ soul was temporarily re-united with his body for the apparition – for we know that St. Michael the Archangel guards the body of Moses (perhaps it is even incorrupt). In any case, it seems to us that the special care given Moses’ body (witnessed in the account of his death in the final chapter of Deuteronomy and also in the Letter of St. Jude) may have been a foreshadowing of his appearance on Tabor.



You see that even those that thought it was [just] Moses' soul, it had to use "condensed air and dust for a bodily form."

In our physical world, using physical eyes, we can only see physical things. And the apostles all saw something physical, as far as we can tell. If they were seeing something physical, then that physical thing was the original bodies of Elijah and Moses (and Samuel), or it was new bodies made especially for the occasion, or it was a mirage or sight trick played on them, or an hallucination, shared by the three men. But those last two options then casts doubt on whether they really saw Jesus transfigured, if Moses and Elijah were just hallucinations.

Which leaves us with 1. original bodies (resurrected or preserved) or 2. some other kind of body (material uncertain, but compressed air and dust being one option).

Whatever the case, we don't know from the texts whether any of the three were really their never-dead souls reunited with the bodily manifestation or were really resurrected and put into these bodies. again. If they were resurrected temporarily, what happened next--after they were done with their missions? I don't know that, either.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
I expect both knew quite a bit about physical death and sleep, since both experienced both, I believe. And they seemed to link the two. Both Jesus and Paul used the word "sleep" as a euphemism for "death". On that basis alone, the cults could certainly be forgiven for misunderstanding that "death" is akin to a state of "sleeping".

Now it seems weird to me that a body that is decaying would be said to be "sleeping". A body that is completely burned to ashes seems to be very little like a body that is "sleeping". And a body that is dumped into the sea and eaten by fish or sharks or crabs, bears little resemblance to a body that is "asleep".

If, then, a person that is dead can be compared to a person that is asleep, what is the basis of that comparison? Is it the bodily state? or the state of the mind? If the bodily state, as I suggested above, the word doesn't seem to fit. But if it is a state of mind--the mind is not currently doing anything, perhaps--then "asleep" is a fitting adjective, don't you think?

Death is called sleep for the simple reason that a person looks like they're asleep when they die physically. See here....

The daughter is "dead".

Luke 8:49-50 While he yet spake, there cometh one from the ruler of the synagogue's house, saying to him, Thy daughter is dead; trouble not the Master. 50 But when Jesus heard it, he answered him, saying, Fear not: believe only, and she shall be made whole.

Here Jesus is saying what He's said before. God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Luke 8:51 And when he came into the house, he suffered no man to go in, save Peter, and James, and John, and the father and the mother of the maiden. 52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.​

The mother and father had no clue what Jesus was telling them, just as you don't seem to right now. When we put off this tent (our body of flesh), we exit that tent, but we are still alive. In this case, Jesus called back the girl's spirit. He is, after all, the God of the living.

Luke 8:53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.​

Luke 8:54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise. 55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat. 56 And her parents were astonished: but he charged them that they should tell no man what was done.​

We often think of the "mind" as the active part of a person, which communicates and perceives and experiences, through the body, at least in this life. We "see" with our eyes, but we "perceive" with our mind using the sight from our ours. We "talk" with our mouths, but we "communicate" with our minds directing our mouthal function. We sense with our tongues and ears and fingers (and eyes), but we "experience" with our minds. Sleep, for the most part, is a cessation of these communicative and perceptive activities. Death is also a cessation of these activities.

No, saying it certainly doesn't make it so. Jesus told us what the afterlife is like in Luke 16. He wasn't merely repeating some fable, trying to pass it off as truth.

Why, then, is it a bad thing to say that when Jesus talks about death, when Paul talks about death, and when the Old Testament in many places talks about death, they all mean the cessation of communication and perception and experience, and they call it "sleep"?

Just because you can't see the spiritual realm doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Samuel, Elijah, and Moses all appeared in some form, but we don't have enough information to do more than make assumptions about what form that was--if a physical body of some sort, or a spiritual essence, perhaps. Nor do we know their state outside of those times when they had some kind of manifestation seen by the living people (Samuel to Saul and Elijah and Moses to the 3 apostles). I expect this aspect of manifestation is what is missing in God (if something could be missing in God), when it says He is "invisible" (Col 1:15). And what appeared to be required anytime a heavenly being appeared to someone on earth, whether it was as a burning bush, or three men on their way to Sodom, or a captain of the Lord's hosts, or even a snake in the Garden. We have a special suffix used to denote an appearance of a spirit-being to a human, "-ophany". And I don't know of too many theologians that use that suffix in regard to Samuel, Elijah, and Moses. We don't talk that way, usually.

Spoiler
Here's a place where someone is considering what the appearance of Moses really was:


With regard to Moses, on the other hand, we are a bit less certain: Some of theologians (notably, St. Thomas Aquinas) hold that Moses did not appear in his own body, but that it was only his soul which was present – the idea being that his soul would have made use of condensed air and dust for a bodily form. Others (Fr. Cornelius a’ Lapide) are inclined to think that Moses’ soul was temporarily re-united with his body for the apparition – for we know that St. Michael the Archangel guards the body of Moses (perhaps it is even incorrupt). In any case, it seems to us that the special care given Moses’ body (witnessed in the account of his death in the final chapter of Deuteronomy and also in the Letter of St. Jude) may have been a foreshadowing of his appearance on Tabor.



You see that even those that thought it was [just] Moses' soul, it had to use "condensed air and dust for a bodily form."


In our physical world, using physical eyes, we can only see physical things. And the apostles all saw something physical, as far as we can tell. If they were seeing something physical, then that physical thing was the original bodies of Elijah and Moses (and Samuel), or it was new bodies made especially for the occasion, or it was a mirage or sight trick played on them, or an hallucination, shared by the three men. But those last two options then casts doubt on whether they really saw Jesus transfigured, if Moses and Elijah were just hallucinations.

Which leaves us with 1. original bodies (resurrected or preserved) or 2. some other kind of body (material uncertain, but compressed air and dust being one option).

Whatever the case, we don't know from the texts whether any of the three were really their never-dead souls reunited with the bodily manifestation or were really resurrected and put into these bodies. again. If they were resurrected temporarily, what happened next--after they were done with their missions? I don't know that, either.

I don't think we need all that conjecture.

2 Corinthians 5:2-4
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.​

Spiritual bodies come in many forms, as you've pointed out. Moses and Elijah had not yet received their resurrected spiritual bodies because Christ had not yet risen. They were not, however, left naked, but were clothed with an interim spiritual body....just as Samuel had, and just as Abraham etal had.
 

Rosenritter

New member
In our physical world, using physical eyes, we can only see physical things. And the apostles all saw something physical, as far as we can tell. If they were seeing something physical, then that physical thing was the original bodies of Elijah and Moses (and Samuel), or it was new bodies made especially for the occasion, or it was a mirage or sight trick played on them, or an hallucination, shared by the three men. But those last two options then casts doubt on whether they really saw Jesus transfigured, if Moses and Elijah were just hallucinations.

1. Right now when you look at your screen you are seeing non-physical things with your physical eyes. They could be pictures of kangaroos or cute bunnies or whatever you have on your desktop wallpaper.

2. When one is in receipt of a vision, it is impossible for them to tell whether they are seeing physical things with their physical eyes, or whether they are seeing a vision of that which resembles physical things with their mind's eye.

Daniel 8:15 KJV
(15) And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.

Revelation 9:17 KJV
(17) And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.

2 Corinthians 12:1-3 KJV
(1) It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
(2) I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
(3) And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; )

The term "hallucination' implies that it is the imagining of the individual mind, but a vision of God can be given to the same people, and if we grant that God is the author of sight and the human brain it will be as real as he wants and even indistinguishable from that which we consider real.
 

Derf

Well-known member
1. Right now when you look at your screen you are seeing non-physical things with your physical eyes. They could be pictures of kangaroos or cute bunnies or whatever you have on your desktop wallpaper.
I guess that can be debated somewhat. The pictures you see are physical representations of physical things.
2. When one is in receipt of a vision, it is impossible for them to tell whether they are seeing physical things with their physical eyes, or whether they are seeing a vision of that which resembles physical things with their mind's eye.

Daniel 8:15 KJV
(15) And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.

Revelation 9:17 KJV
(17) And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.

2 Corinthians 12:1-3 KJV
(1) It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
(2) I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
(3) And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; )

The term "hallucination' implies that it is the imagining of the individual mind, but a vision of God can be given to the same people, and if we grant that God is the author of sight and the human brain it will be as real as he wants and even indistinguishable from that which we consider real.
There might be a negative connotation that we associate with the word, but the definition doesn't require such connotation:

hal·lu·ci·na·tion noun
an experience involving the apparent perception of something not present.
synonyms: delusion, illusion, figment of the imagination, vision, apparition, mirage, chimera, fantasy, dream, daydream;


All of your examples are of a single person having a vision. That's not the case for either the Samuel or the transfiguration episodes.
 

Derf

Well-known member
Death is called sleep for the simple reason that a person looks like they're asleep when they die physically. See here....

The daughter is "dead".

Luke 8:49-50 While he yet spake, there cometh one from the ruler of the synagogue's house, saying to him, Thy daughter is dead; trouble not the Master. 50 But when Jesus heard it, he answered him, saying, Fear not: believe only, and she shall be made whole.

Here Jesus is saying what He's said before. God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Luke 8:51 And when he came into the house, he suffered no man to go in, save Peter, and James, and John, and the father and the mother of the maiden. 52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.​
Jesus makes a similar distinction in the other Lazarus' case, here:
[Jhn 11:11-14 KJV] 11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

But he then removes the distinction. Jesus, in this passage, equates death and sleep. I don't think He meant it differently in your reference. What is the difference between death and sleep? In sleep we usually wake up. I think the use of "sleep" for death is that Jesus was focusing on the waking up that was coming (very soon in these cases). So these don't negate what I was suggesting. In fact, they reinforce it. It doesn't seem to me that Jesus was giving a doctrine that says, "even when you are dead, you are really alive, you just look like you are dead" as you are trying to say.

The mother and father had no clue what Jesus was telling them, just as you don't seem to right now. When we put off this tent (our body of flesh), we exit that tent, but we are still alive. In this case, Jesus called back the girl's spirit. He is, after all, the God of the living.

Luke 8:53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.​

Luke 8:54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise. 55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat. 56 And her parents were astonished: but he charged them that they should tell no man what was done.​
Jesus called back the girl's life. "Spirit" here could be read to be "breath" or "life force". To read more than that is to interject your preconception into the text, so it becomes of little use for your argument.



No, saying it certainly doesn't make it so. Jesus told us what the afterlife is like in Luke 16. He wasn't merely repeating some fable, trying to pass it off as truth.
Yes, that's right--appeal back to the question we are trying to answer, just like [MENTION=2801]way 2 go[/MENTION] keeps doing. Maybe you don't know what the word "death" means.


Just because you can't see the spiritual realm doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Not saying it doesn't. I'm questioning whether we are part of it without our bodies. I'm questioning whether the story-line I grew up with is really supported in scripture. It might be. There's a fairly strong case for it, but are there other ways to understand these scriptures--have we given in to laziness in rightly dividing the word and we just take the standard story-line as gospel? This is what the reformers fought against--just allowing somebody else to dictate to us what the word of God says.


I don't think we need all that conjecture.
Without conjecture of some sort, we can never determine if our current preconceptions are valid. And if we decide we already know everything there is to know about a subject, we limit what we are willing to learn from God's word. This seems like a bad position to take.

And we conjecture all the time about what the spiritual realm is like, since we have no experience with it, only some hard to understand accounts from people that only told us some of the things they witnessed in the spiritual realm.

2 Corinthians 5:2-4
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.​

Spiritual bodies come in many forms, as you've pointed out. Moses and Elijah had not yet received their resurrected spiritual bodies because Christ had not yet risen. They were not, however, left naked, but were clothed with an interim spiritual body....just as Samuel had, and just as Abraham etal had.
How do you know what Abraham has or had? You are using your preconception, which eventually goes back to the Rich man/Lazarus story, as you referenced above.

And Jesus' reference to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob was in relation to the resurrection of the dead, not the resurrection of the living.

I think I've said before--that may be a correct preconception. But if it's really only based on a single passage of scripture, it suffers from source material. A doctrine that is resting on a single passage of scripture is one that might be wrong, and we should, imo, be prepared to let it go. The concern, even if we say that Jesus words are more trustworthy than others (with which I agree), what we are missing is Jesus' interpretation of His words. And you must admit there are passages of Jesus' words that are not consistently interpreted across different denominations.
 

Rosenritter

New member
I guess that can be debated somewhat. The pictures you see are physical representations of physical things.

There might be a negative connotation that we associate with the word, but the definition doesn't require such connotation:

hal·lu·ci·na·tion noun
an experience involving the apparent perception of something not present.
synonyms: delusion, illusion, figment of the imagination, vision, apparition, mirage, chimera, fantasy, dream, daydream;


All of your examples are of a single person having a vision. That's not the case for either the Samuel or the transfiguration episodes.

There's no specific word on the ghost of Samuel, but Jesus said that the transfiguration was a vision.

Matthew 17:9 KJV
(9) And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
 
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