ST. JOHN 11:26

[way 2 go]

Before, you said we should take Jesus word over someone's from the Old Testament when talking a bout Hades. Now you are saying we should take someone from the Old Testament's word over Jesus's.

:AMR:
Jesus added information is what I said

Paul added information too
2Co_12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows.

Jesus told us the rich man talked with Abraham in Hades not a contradiction just added information
like a new heaven and a new earth Rev 21:1-27

you are saying Jesus lied I am saying he added information.


Jesus told us where the rich man went , that is Hades .
Jesus told the truth

The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

 

[Rosenritter]

The thing that interests me about this discussion with the Sadducees is that Jesus, in talking about the resurrection, said Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob ARE alive. Now, if Jesus was saying they are currently alive in Hades (prior to His resurrection, and certainly prior to theirs), then there was no need to point to the resurrection or "the power of God", He only needed to point to the fact of their being currently alive. But if they are currently dead, then they NEED a resurrection to be counted as "alive", so it makes sense of Jesus reference to them. And to be resurrected, the "power of God" is necessary.

... that's what William Tyndale said.

 

[Derf]

:AMR:
Jesus added information is what I said

Paul added information too
2Co_12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows.

I agree you said that. But I don't agree that you didn't say the other, too. :

...

no conflict

Of course there's a conflict. The Old Testament says something different than this story does, and you admitted it when you said

well considering the source is Jesus the creator of Hades, Jesus would know what he is talking about

The implication is that the Old Testament didn't know what they are talking about. Is that what you are saying?

To which you replied:

:nono:
the old testament just said Sheol & was understood.
Jesus gave us the description of Hades which people want but don't believe when they are given it

Such was an evasion. This verse explains some of what they already knew about Sheol:
[Ecc 9:10 YLT] All that thy hand findeth to do, with thy power do, for there is no work, and device, and knowledge, and wisdom in Sheol whither thou art going.

But the story has the rich man devising a way for Lazarus to go to his brothers, and knowing still that he has brothers (not to mention that he is tormented in the flame), and Abraham exhibiting wisdom in his response to the rich man as well as knowing about the chasm between them. These are not additive descriptions, but contradictory descriptions.

Unless 1. Jesus was telling a parable and not trying to describe Hades, or 2. Jesus was telling of an event in the future, after people in Hades had been resurrected and thrown into the lake of fire along with Hades.

 

[Rosenritter]

I agree you said that. But I don't agree that you didn't say the other, too. :

To which you replied:


Such was an evasion. This verse explains some of what they already knew about Sheol:
[Ecc 9:10 YLT] All that thy hand findeth to do, with thy power do, for there is no work, and device, and knowledge, and wisdom in Sheol whither thou art going.

But the story has the rich man devising a way for Lazarus to go to his brothers, and knowing still that he has brothers (not to mention that he is tormented in the flame), and Abraham exhibiting wisdom in his response to the rich man as well as knowing about the chasm between them. These are not additive descriptions, but contradictory descriptions.

Unless 1. Jesus was telling a parable and not trying to describe Hades, or 2. Jesus was telling of an event in the future, after people in Hades had been resurrected and thrown into the lake of fire along with Hades.

Wife: Did you go to the bar with your friends after work tonight?
Husband: No, I didn't go to the bar or do anything. I came straight home after work.
Wife: OK, I trust you.

(next day)

Husband: So when I was talking with Frank yesterday...
Wife: Wait a minute, when did you see Frank? He started a new job last month?
Husband: We were at Chubby's talking over a beer.
Wife: Wait! You said you came straight home yesterday and didn't go to the bar! Why did you lie to me?
Husband: I wasn't lying... I was just now adding new information.

Wife: !!!??!!!??!!!

So obviously the Wife was in the wrong for doubting the word of her husband. He has the right to add new information when he chooses...

 

[way 2 go]

Such was an evasion. This verse explains some of what they already knew about Sheol:
[Ecc 9:10 YLT] All that thy hand findeth to do, with thy power do, for there is no work, and device, and knowledge, and wisdom in Sheol whither thou art going.

But the story has the rich man devising a way for Lazarus to go to his brothers, and knowing still that he has brothers (not to mention that he is tormented in the flame), and Abraham exhibiting wisdom in his response to the rich man as well as knowing about the chasm between them. These are not additive descriptions, but contradictory descriptions.

Unless 1. Jesus was telling a parable and not trying to describe Hades, or 2. Jesus was telling of an event in the future, after people in Hades had been resurrected and thrown into the lake of fire along with Hades.

no

what is there to do in Sheol , nothing .

 

[Derf]

no

what is there to do in Sheol , nothing .

Not according to Jesus. He said there were rousing theological discussions across the chasm.

 

[Rosenritter]

Not according to Jesus. He said there were rousing theological discussions across the chasm.

Hell is an eternity of arguing back and forth in theological discussions?

 

[Derf]

Hell is an eternity of arguing back and forth in theological discussions?

Isn't that what Abraham and rich dude were doing?

 

[Rosenritter]

Isn't that what Abraham and rich dude were doing?

I think that's what we do here.

 

[glorydaz]

Such was an evasion. This verse explains some of what they already knew about Sheol:
[Ecc 9:10 YLT] All that thy hand findeth to do, with thy power do, for there is no work, and device, and knowledge, and wisdom in Sheol whither thou art going.

But the story has the rich man devising a way for Lazarus to go to his brothers, and knowing still that he has brothers (not to mention that he is tormented in the flame), and Abraham exhibiting wisdom in his response to the rich man as well as knowing about the chasm between them. These are not additive descriptions, but contradictory descriptions.

Unless 1. Jesus was telling a parable and not trying to describe Hades, or 2. Jesus was telling of an event in the future, after people in Hades had been resurrected and thrown into the lake of fire along with Hades.

Total nonsense. You've been sleeping with the enemy too long. :chuckle:

Read the rest of Ecc. 9 and see if you want to live by what man's wisdom tells you. I find it fascinating that people read Solomon's words as gospel, including "all is vanity", and can't see that Solomon was speaking in his unbelief. He did go through all the stages of men, in case you hadn't noticed.

Ecc. 9:1-2 For all this I considered in my heart even to declare all this, that the righteous, and the wise, and their works, are in the hand of God: no man knoweth either love or hatred by all that is before them. All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath.​

But you'd rather hear Solomon's words than accept what our Lord and Saviour told us clearly in Luke 16 concerning the afterlife.

Pick and choose and then mock. That is truly disappointing, Derf.

 

[glorydaz]

Hell is an eternity of arguing back and forth in theological discussions?

Nonsense, that would be heaven for such as you.

 

[glorydaz]

Not according to Jesus. He said there were rousing theological discussions across the chasm.

:rotfl:

 

[glorydaz]

no

what is there to do in Sheol , nothing .

Some wait for the judgement, and some waited until the resurrection of the Lord.

One thing they didn't do was SLEEP, as the cults claim.

 

[glorydaz]

The thing that interests me about this discussion with the Sadducees is that Jesus, in talking about the resurrection, said Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob ARE alive. Now, if Jesus was saying they are currently alive in Hades (prior to His resurrection, and certainly prior to theirs), then there was no need to point to the resurrection or "the power of God", He only needed to point to the fact of their being currently alive. But if they are currently dead, then they NEED a resurrection to be counted as "alive", so it makes sense of Jesus reference to them. And to be resurrected, the "power of God" is necessary.

The "power of God" in that verse is talking about God being the God of the LIVING....not the dead. That's the point, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were not DEAD while Jesus was speaking these words. Their body of flesh lay in a grave, but they were very much alive. Their body of flesh would not be raised until the resurrection.

Matt. 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. 33 And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.​

It truly amazes me that you two can't understand the simplicity of what Jesus is saying. Abraham is NOT dead. God is not the God of the dead....period. A person is alive in Christ or dead in his trespasses and sins.

 

[way 2 go]

Isn't that what Abraham and rich dude were doing?

and the result of the discussion between Abraham and rich man was nothing gained,

but the result of Jesus telling us about it has been very informative of Hades

 

[Derf]

The "power of God" in that verse is talking about God being the God of the LIVING....not the dead. That's the point, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were not DEAD while Jesus was speaking these words. Their body of flesh lay in a grave, but they were very much alive. Their body of flesh would not be raised until the resurrection.

Matt. 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. 33 And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.​

It truly amazes me that you two can't understand the simplicity of what Jesus is saying. Abraham is NOT dead. God is not the God of the dead....period. A person is alive in Christ or dead in his trespasses and sins.

It seems equally amazing that one of your intellect would think that someone who is alive would need to be resurrected from the dead.

 

[Derf]

Some wait for the judgement, and some waited until the resurrection of the Lord.

One thing they didn't do was SLEEP, as the cults claim.

Not to mention practically all of the Old Testament, as well as both Jesus and Paul.

 

[glorydaz]

It seems equally amazing that one of your intellect would think that someone who is alive would need to be resurrected from the dead.

Don't try to brown nose me. I'm not susceptible. :chuckle:


Point of fact, I understand and believe what Paul says. Being absent from the body does not equal dead, and resurrection speaks of the body.

2 Corinthians 5:6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.​

Abraham is alive, and will be up to and including after the resurrection of the dead, when he will receive his resurrected body.

Man is composed of body, soul, and spirit. We can put off our body of flesh, but we are still alive only awaiting the redemption of our body.

I'm surprised someone of your intellect doesn't understand that our physical body is just the tent in which we dwell.

 

[glorydaz]

Not to mention practically all of the Old Testament, as well as both Jesus and Paul.

What are you trying to say here? If you're saying Paul and our Lord didn't understand the difference between sleep and physical death, you're wrong. They understood the difference between being physically dead.... yet alive while physically dead.

Samuel was alive while physically dead, for example.

Moses and Elijah were alive while physically dead, for example.

 

[oatmeal]

What do you think of this verse? How are we to understand it?

ST. JOHN 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

ST. JOHN 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
ST. JOHN 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
ST. JOHN 11:27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

I think it is wonderful

WE should understand it by rightly dividing it