Scripture. What is considered Scripture?

[john w]

No answer, I see.

5th request:Chapter, verse, as I've asked you, where the LORD God commands that I answer any/all questions, especially from bible rejecting, bible correcting mystics/agnostics, satanists, like you.

Not a peep. He won't touch that request.

 

[genuineoriginal]

No, but now you only confirm what I said, for it was an example to show you what you yourself are doing, for it was you who said, "let the scripture interpret itself" concerning this passage when there is no need for interpretation to begin with.

There was never a need to interpret the passage as saying that God preserves "words", but there is always a need to correct a misinterpretation of scripture such as that one.

And now you begin your comments with, "I see", which is exactly what I was talking about: *you see* what you wish to see but you have misinterpreted the logos-reasoning behind what I said.

It matters not what you thought you were trying to accomplish when what you did was to provide proof of how to misinterpret scripture by taking the words out of context.

In the passage in question there is no pause or break in thought, (which would be denoted in the Masorete Hebrew text with either the letter sameck or the letter pe respectively, otherwise there really is not a form of punctuation), and therefore I can read it just as it is, without the verse numbering, even as one whole sentence:

"The words of the LORD are pure words, as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times: You shall keep them, O LORD,..."

There is no room for you to insert your interpretation into the text like you are doing.

You are relying on a misinterpretation caused by the wording in the KJV translation instead of realizing that the real meaning of the passage is found in dozens of other translations and in the original language.

Maybe this will help you:

WHY PSALM 12:6,7 IS NOT A PROMISE OF THE INFALLIBLE PRESERVATION OF SCRIPTURE
When we turn to the Hebrew text of Psalm 12, the ambiguity of the English disappears. Hebrew, like many non-English languages, has a feature that English lacks -- that of grammatical gender. In English, object words are classified according to natural gender: men, boys, and the male offspring of animals are classified as masculine and masculine pronouns he, him, etc., are used of them; women, girls, and the female offspring of animals, plus sometimes countries, boats, and until recently, hurricanes, are considered feminine, and feminine pronouns she, her, etc., are used of them. Just about everything else from forks, knives, and spoons to roofing nails and sheet rock is classified as neuter.

In English, we have only natural gender; many, if not most, other languages have, in addition to natural gender, grammatical gender. Some languages have two grammatical genders -- masculine and feminine (e.g., the Semitic languages); others add a third -- neuter (this is the situation in Greek, Latin, German, and others). Things naturally masculine and things naturally feminine are so treated, but very many things are grammatically treated as masculine, feminine, or neuter without any connection to natural gender at all. For example, the German word for spoon is masculine; for fork, feminine; and for knife, neuter.

In languages that have grammatical gender, it is usual and customary for pronouns to agree with their antecedents in gender and number. Hebrew here is like the rest. And also like the rest, there are occasional exceptions to the principle of agreement in the Hebrew Bible (see Gesenius’ Hebrew Grammar, 135 o), but the Book of Psalms is exceptionally regular on the matter of gender agreement.

In the Hebrew of Psalm 12, the pronouns translated them in verse 7 are both masculine -- the first them being plural in number, the second being singular (him, literally), particularizing every individual in the group (with slightly different vowel points in Hebrew, the second pronoun could be understood as the first person plural common, viz., us). So, the antecedent noun can be expected to be masculine in gender and plural in number.

The word rendered words twice in verse 6 is a feminine plural noun in both cases; the words poor and needy in verse 5 are both masculine and plural in Hebrew. While the English translation is ambiguous and allows two different antecedents, the Hebrew is clear and plain -- the antecedent of them is the poor and needy ones of verse 5, not the words of verse 6. Gender agreement of pronoun and antecedent demonstrates this.​

 

[glorydaz]

You keep missing the words of the Lord mentioned in the psalm.

Psalm 12:5-7 5 For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the Lord; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.​ 6 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. 7 Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

The psalm speaks of the Lord promising to set the faithful in safety and praises that promise.
Then the psalm states that the Lord shall "guard, watch, watch over, keep" them, meaning the faithful, from this generation for ever.

There is always a point in praising God for His promises.

Guard, watch over, and keep them? I see preserve. :think:

So tell me....what is the point of the Psalm? How are these faithful ones being preserved from those children of men who "puffeth" at them? How are these vain words and proud boastings...claiming no lord is over them...affecting the faithful ones? Are these boastings causing the poor to be oppressed? Is that what you're saying?

Or, is this Psalm showing how the words of men cannot be trusted, but God's words can. God doesn't promise us we will be free from oppression in this life (which is the only way the children of men can affect us in any way whatsoever).

Rather, this is a reminder that God's words endure for ever. The psalmist is saying exactly what Peter says here.

1 Peter 1:24-25
For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.​

The wickedness of man will go on, but God's words endure forever.

 

[daqq]

There was never a need to interpret the passage as saying that God preserves "words", but there is always a need to correct a misinterpretation of scripture such as that one.



It matters not what you thought you were trying to accomplish when what you did was to provide proof of how to misinterpret scripture by taking the words out of context.


You are relying on a misinterpretation caused by the wording in the KJV translation instead of realizing that the real meaning of the passage is found in dozens of other translations and in the original language.

Maybe this will help you:

WHY PSALM 12:6,7 IS NOT A PROMISE OF THE INFALLIBLE PRESERVATION OF SCRIPTURE
When we turn to the Hebrew text of Psalm 12, the ambiguity of the English disappears. Hebrew, like many non-English languages, has a feature that English lacks -- that of grammatical gender. In English, object words are classified according to natural gender: men, boys, and the male offspring of animals are classified as masculine and masculine pronouns he, him, etc., are used of them; women, girls, and the female offspring of animals, plus sometimes countries, boats, and until recently, hurricanes, are considered feminine, and feminine pronouns she, her, etc., are used of them. Just about everything else from forks, knives, and spoons to roofing nails and sheet rock is classified as neuter.

In English, we have only natural gender; many, if not most, other languages have, in addition to natural gender, grammatical gender. Some languages have two grammatical genders -- masculine and feminine (e.g., the Semitic languages); others add a third -- neuter (this is the situation in Greek, Latin, German, and others). Things naturally masculine and things naturally feminine are so treated, but very many things are grammatically treated as masculine, feminine, or neuter without any connection to natural gender at all. For example, the German word for spoon is masculine; for fork, feminine; and for knife, neuter.

In languages that have grammatical gender, it is usual and customary for pronouns to agree with their antecedents in gender and number. Hebrew here is like the rest. And also like the rest, there are occasional exceptions to the principle of agreement in the Hebrew Bible (see Gesenius’ Hebrew Grammar, 135 o), but the Book of Psalms is exceptionally regular on the matter of gender agreement.

In the Hebrew of Psalm 12, the pronouns translated them in verse 7 are both masculine -- the first them being plural in number, the second being singular (him, literally), particularizing every individual in the group (with slightly different vowel points in Hebrew, the second pronoun could be understood as the first person plural common, viz., us). So, the antecedent noun can be expected to be masculine in gender and plural in number.

The word rendered words twice in verse 6 is a feminine plural noun in both cases; the words poor and needy in verse 5 are both masculine and plural in Hebrew. While the English translation is ambiguous and allows two different antecedents, the Hebrew is clear and plain -- the antecedent of them is the poor and needy ones of verse 5, not the words of verse 6. Gender agreement of pronoun and antecedent demonstrates this.
​

Posting more interpretations which deny what the passage says only proves my point once again. You must ignore basic grammar rules to say what you and your expositors say about that passage.

"The words of the LORD are pure words, as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times: You shall keep them, O LORD,..."

 

[genuineoriginal]

The scriptures has no errors-it is pure, true, sound, perfect.

It never has been, but God makes His Will known to those that are His through His Holy Spirit.

No, bible corrector, the book/God is correct-you are wrong. "world" is correct.

Jesus did not speak in Elizabethan English in the Olivet Discourse and His words were translated into Greek from the Hebrew or Aramaic He spoke, so the true meaning of οἰκουμένη oikoumenē in the verse is subject to debate.
History shows where the gospel was spread by the time the Temple was destroyed as prophesied and it was not the globe that we call the world in English.

 

[john w]

It never has been, but God makes His Will known to those that are His through His Holy Spirit.

Quite irrelevant.

Jesus did not speak in Elizabethan English in the Olivet Discourse and His words were translated into Greek from the Hebrew or Aramaic He spoke, so the true meaning of οἰκουμένη oikoumenē in the verse is subject to debate.

1.Quite irrelevant. And if he did not speak in English, Latin, German....you would "argue" that most of the world, who do not speak/understand whatever language He spoke, does not access to the scriptures. That is a made up, impotent God, not an all powerful LORD God, who can/did easily make His word available in all languages. You're a humanist moron.

2. Even if relevantrove that He spoke Hebrew, or Aramaic, or Greek.


3. Chapter, verse, where the LORD God promised to preserve His word in any language. Watch the evasion....Watch....

 

[john w]

You are relying on a misinterpretation caused by the wording in the KJV translation instead of realizing that the real meaning of the passage is found in dozens of other translations and in the original language.

Observe, the deception-"in the original language."

You have the scripture, "in the original language?"

I will pay you $400,000 for it.


Con artist.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Guard, watch over, and keep them? I see preserve. :think:

So tell me....what is the point of the Psalm?

The same point as these verses:

Zephaniah 3:12-13 12 I will also leave in the midst of thee an afflicted and poor people, and they shall trust in the name of the Lord. 13 The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.​

How are these faithful ones being preserved from those children of men who "puffeth" at them? How are these vain words and proud boastings...claiming no lord is over them...affecting the faithful ones? Are these boastings causing the poor to be oppressed? Is that what you're saying?

How are the faithful being preserved in Psalm 44?

Psalm 44:22 22 Yea, for thy sake are we killed all the day long; we are counted as sheep for the slaughter.​

Or, is this Psalm showing how the words of men cannot be trusted, but God's words can.

You may want to read the words of the psalm again, but use some better translation than the KJV.

God doesn't promise us we will be free from oppression in this life (which is the only way the children of men can affect us in any way whatsoever).

Rather, this is a reminder that God's words endure for ever. The psalmist is saying exactly what Peter says here.

1 Peter 1:24-25
For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.​

Both say God will fulfill His promises.
Neither say God will make sure that any translation of any of the writings that make up the Bible as we know it will be flawless.

 

[genuineoriginal]

if he did not speak in English, Latin, German....you would "argue" that most of the world, who do not speak/understand whatever language He spoke, does not access to the scriptures.

No, that is the lie you keep trying to promote.

Prove that He spoke Hebrew, or Aramaic, or Greek.

You are the one that believes the KJV is the only true scripture. Prove that Jesus spoke in Elizabethan English or stop being a fool about what language Jesus spoke in.

Chapter, verse, where the LORD God promised to preserve His word in any language.

You know that there is no such verse, so why do you keep trying to cling to the lie that the KJV is the only translation God approves of?

 

[genuineoriginal]

You have the scripture, "in the original language?"

I will pay you $400,000 for it.

I don't need the scripture in the "original language" since I have access to dozens of translations in English.
By comparing the translations, I am able to come to a closer knowledge of what was written than someone that thinks their misunderstanding of the KJV is right.

 

[daqq]

Maybe this will help you:

WHY PSALM 12:6,7 IS NOT A PROMISE OF THE INFALLIBLE PRESERVATION OF SCRIPTURE
When we turn to the Hebrew text of Psalm 12, the ambiguity of the English disappears. Hebrew, like many non-English languages, has a feature that English lacks -- that of grammatical gender. In English, object words are classified according to natural gender: men, boys, and the male offspring of animals are classified as masculine and masculine pronouns he, him, etc., are used of them; women, girls, and the female offspring of animals, plus sometimes countries, boats, and until recently, hurricanes, are considered feminine, and feminine pronouns she, her, etc., are used of them. Just about everything else from forks, knives, and spoons to roofing nails and sheet rock is classified as neuter.

In English, we have only natural gender; many, if not most, other languages have, in addition to natural gender, grammatical gender. Some languages have two grammatical genders -- masculine and feminine (e.g., the Semitic languages); others add a third -- neuter (this is the situation in Greek, Latin, German, and others). Things naturally masculine and things naturally feminine are so treated, but very many things are grammatically treated as masculine, feminine, or neuter without any connection to natural gender at all. For example, the German word for spoon is masculine; for fork, feminine; and for knife, neuter.

In languages that have grammatical gender, it is usual and customary for pronouns to agree with their antecedents in gender and number. Hebrew here is like the rest. And also like the rest, there are occasional exceptions to the principle of agreement in the Hebrew Bible (see Gesenius’ Hebrew Grammar, 135 o), but the Book of Psalms is exceptionally regular on the matter of gender agreement.

In the Hebrew of Psalm 12, the pronouns translated them in verse 7 are both masculine -- the first them being plural in number, the second being singular (him, literally), particularizing every individual in the group (with slightly different vowel points in Hebrew, the second pronoun could be understood as the first person plural common, viz., us). So, the antecedent noun can be expected to be masculine in gender and plural in number.

The word rendered words twice in verse 6 is a feminine plural noun in both cases; the words poor and needy in verse 5 are both masculine and plural in Hebrew. While the English translation is ambiguous and allows two different antecedents, the Hebrew is clear and plain -- the antecedent of them is the poor and needy ones of verse 5, not the words of verse 6. Gender agreement of pronoun and antecedent demonstrates this.​

Maybe this will help you: Wisdom is feminine.

Perhaps that has to do with the first version I quoted to you, from the YLT, which has "Sayings"?

 

[genuineoriginal]

Maybe this will help you: Wisdom is feminine.

Perhaps that has to do with the first version I quoted to you, from the YLT, which has "Sayings"?

Words (sayings) and wisdom are feminine in Hebrew, but the verses says God will preserve masculine them, so them is not referring to the words or sayings of God but to something else.

 

[john w]

No, that is the lie you keep trying to promote.

You are the one that believes the KJV is the only true scripture. Prove that Jesus spoke in Elizabethan English or stop being a fool about what language Jesus spoke in.

You know that there is no such verse, so why do you keep trying to cling to the lie that the KJV is the only translation God approves of?

No, if he did not speak in English, Latin, German....you would "argue" that most of the world, who do not speak/understand whatever language He spoke, does not access to the scriptures.

Prove that He spoke Hebrew, or Aramaic, or Greek.

Chapter, verse, where the LORD God promised to preserve His word in any language.

Where can we get a copy of the preserved, true, sure, sound, perfect, pure scriptures?

Define bible believer.


Chapter, verse, where scripture says that a translation cannot be "is given by inspiration."

You are a bible correcting devil child, not a bible believer. My evidence? You.

 

[glorydaz]

I don't need the scripture in the "original language" since I have access to dozens of translations in English.
By comparing the translations, I am able to come to a closer knowledge of what was written than someone that thinks their misunderstanding of the KJV is right.

So, you end up choosing the one that agrees with what you think is closest to what you believe, right?

Yet, you fault King James readers for sticking to the one they have found to be accurate. :think:

 

[john w]

No, that is the lie you keep trying to promote.

You are the one that believes the KJV is the only true scripture.

Show me where I asserted that "the KJV is the only true scripture."

Post my quote.

Prove that Jesus spoke in Elizabethan English or stop being a fool about what language Jesus spoke in.

You know that there is no such verse, so why do you keep trying to cling to the lie that the KJV is the only translation God approves of?

Prove that He spoke in Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, and where scripture promises preservation in a specific language.


Go ahead, you bible correcting moron.

 

[Lon]

Chapter, verse, where the LORD God promised to preserve His word in any language, including a dead language, such as the Koine Greek, which most Greeks do not even speak.

Not even at that. Nobody speaks Koine Greek that I'm aware of. Many can read it out loud, but speaking? :nono: Not even my Greek professors conversed to one another in it.

Koine is about as different to modern Greek as Gaelic is to English.
View attachment 26096
▲Gaelic▲

 

[glorydaz]

The same point as these verses:

Zephaniah 3:12-13 12 I will also leave in the midst of thee an afflicted and poor people, and they shall trust in the name of the Lord. 13 The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.​

How are the faithful being preserved in Psalm 44?

Psalm 44:22 22 Yea, for thy sake are we killed all the day long; we are counted as sheep for the slaughter.​

You may want to read the words of the psalm again, but use some better translation than the KJV.



Both say God will fulfill His promises.
Neither say God will make sure that any translation of any of the writings that make up the Bible as we know it will be flawless.

Looks to me like you aren't really interested in what the Psalm actually says, but, instead are out to prove your translations are where the closest to your "truth" is found. To do that, however, you are forced to IGNORE the obvious....the elephant in the room. The words of the Lord. Thou shalt keep them, Oh Lord.

They are right there in the translation you quoted.

"Psalm 12:5-7 5 For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the Lord; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him. 6 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. 7 Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever."

I prefer not to toss out such an important text as God's words being pure and tried in a furnace... Why are those words there? You are forced to ignore them with your reading, and pulling up verses from other places in scripture cannot make those words go away.

Psalm 12:6-7KJV
The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. 7 Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.​

Psalm 12:6-7ASVThe words of Jehovah are pure words;
As silver tried in a furnace on the earth,
Purified seven times.
7 Thou wilt keep them, O Jehovah,
Thou wilt preserve them from this generation for ever.​

 

[daqq]

Originally Posted by daqq
Maybe this will help you: Wisdom is feminine.

Perhaps that has to do with the first version I quoted to you, from the YLT, which has "Sayings"?

Words (sayings) and wisdom are feminine in Hebrew, but the verses says God will preserve masculine them, so them is not referring to the words or sayings of God but to something else.

The only way you can get to where you are is by ignoring the plain logos-reasoning of what is actually written in the context:

Help, LORD, for the godly man ceases: for the faithful fail from among the children of men. They speak vanity every one with his neighbor: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak.

The LORD shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaks proud things, who have said:

"With our tongue will we prevail, our lips are our own: who is lord over us?"--

"For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise", says the LORD, "I will set him in safety from him that puffs at him."

The imrot-words (H565 imrah, feminine of H561 -'emer) of the LORD are pure imrot-words, as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times: You shall keep them, O LORD, You shall preserve us from this generation for ever. The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted.

Proverbs 8:1-9 KJV
1 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?
2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.
3 She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.
4 Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.
5 O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.
6 Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.
7 For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.
8 All the imrei-words [H561 - 'emer - masculine] of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.
9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

Your commentators only show that they found a way to insert their own reasoning into the text.

1Cor 1:24, Gal 3:27-28 ASV

 

[2003cobra]

No, satanist, you are just too stupid to understand the verse, so you flip the bird at the LORD God, asserting that He is a liar, untruthful,in His book, like you, satanist.

Chapter, verse, that asserts that scripture has errors, satanist.

Not a peep.


Chapter, verse, as I've asked you, where the LORD God commands that I answer any/all questions, especially from bible rejecting, bible correcting mystics/agnostics, satanists, like you.


Not a peep.

I have not disrespected the Lord God in any way.

You seem to not know the difference between God and your man-made tradition.

Do you also worship a book?

 

[2003cobra]

5th request:Chapter, verse, as I've asked you, where the LORD God commands that I answer any/all questions, especially from bible rejecting, bible correcting mystics/agnostics, satanists, like you.

Not a peep. He won't touch that request.

1 Peter 3.15
Always be ready to make your defense to anyone who demands from you an accounting for the hope that is in you