ECT SALVATION: OLD TESTAMENT VS NEW

[Cross Reference]

Then you are UN-faithful, and learning HOW to be faithful...

Saints are NOT UN-faithful...

Try again!

Arsenios

No! You try again, O Christian in name only. You apparently have never heard from the Lord to be challenged by His voice or circumstances that speak of Him to your spirit, to be faithful in what He would have of you. But then again, how could you if you are not born again. Sorry.

 

[Cross Reference]

Among whom I am in the first rank...

A first RANK sinner!

Arsenios

Then Christ is yet a stranger to you.

 

[Arsenios]

Well it does make sense; however, I don't know if I am bringing my presuppositions to it to the point that I am reading it for what I want to say or for what you are attempting to convey;

Understandable... The post to which you replied is the whole point of thSo it moved from your bapt- and epi- root meanings to the restoration of the human hypostasis in Christ's human Hypostasis, to our entry into Christ in Christ's Baptism, in which our human hypostasis is created anew conjoined with Christ's Hypostasis...

Hypostasis means Person...

This is why genuinely Orthodox folks are so insufferably GENUINE...

for to me I hear you saying there is a big difference between epi before Christ's glorification and Christ in us after it;

Perhaps in this you have caught the shift from epi- to bapt-...

For prior to the incarnation of Christ, the Holy Spirit "came upon" God's OT Holy Ones, as He did "come upon" the Blessed Virgin when she conceived Christ into the flesh in her blessed womb... The Old Testament Saints retained unchanged their Hypostases [Persons] after the visitation of the Holy Spirit, even though now they were "lit up" in the Glory, the Power, of the Holy Spirit. Moses' shining face comes to mind...

But now, instead of the Spirit coming EPI- the person of the Saint, instead we have the person BAPT- INTO the Person of Christ, in the Baptismal Waters of Regeneration... In those Waters man puts on Christ, having been purified of all defilement in them...

This is how we enter into the Promised Land, the Kingdom of Heaven, Christ our God... And it is why Christ was baptized by John's fleshy and human hands in Jordan's waters, which form the boundary of the Promised Land of the Jews...

hence I hear you saying that there was a significant difference between the faith reckoned to Abraham as righteousness in the OT and that of Paul after the fulfillment of the covenant in the NT,

No difference in each one's personal faith at all - Moses doubtless had greater faith than Paul [Just my guess]... But THE Faith of Christ is what Paul had, that Moses did not have... For Paul was baptized into Christ and filled with the Holy Spirit at the hands of Ananias, who cured his blindness... And this Moses did not have, but he foresaw it coming in the future... As did David... And all the Prophets...

he then sharing in the vicarious-ontological faith and righteousness of Christ. Yes?

There is nothing vicarious about what Christians in Christ receive... It is personal, it is real, and it is direct... It is Reality, the Reality of the Creator of all creation... His righteousness is not credited to our account, but instead we are ENTERED INTO His Righteousness in the Baptismal Waters... In purity of heart... And we are so entered into Christ BY Christ Himself at the hands of His Servants within His Body, the Ekklesia of God on earth, as was Paul by Ananias...

To which I would agree.

Do you still?

Yes, my name is Thomas

Good!

Then I will pray for the Servant of God, Thomas...

Thank-you.

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Then Christ is yet a stranger to you.

Because I am chief of sinners?

You need to tell Paul quickly,
Because Christ must be a stranger to him too...

Here is Paul's confession...
Which is also a prescription FOR every Christian:

1Tim 1:15
This is a faithful saying,
and worthy of all acceptation,
that Christ Jesus came into the world
to save sinners;
of whom I am chief.

Do YOU ACCEPT this faithful saying of Paul?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

No! You try again, O Christian in name only.
You ... have never heard from the Lord
you are not born again.

Mat_15:18
But those things which proceed out of the mouth
come forth from the heart;
and they defile the man.


The thing that caused you to say these words...
Seeks your utter defilement, my friend...

Sorry.

You are forgiven even before you say them...

But more than my forgiveness is needed...

Arsenios

 

[Cross Reference]

Mat_15:18
But those things which proceed out of the mouth
come forth from the heart;
and they defile the man.


The thing that caused you to say these words...
Seeks your utter defilement, my friend...



You are forgiven even before you say them...

But more than my forgiveness is needed...

Arsenios

Spare me your false piety, friend!
You begged for it I only accommodate your wishes. This is what I wrote:

"No! You try again, O Christian in name only. You apparently have never heard from the Lord to be challenged by His voice or circumstances that speak of Him to your spirit, to be faithful in what He would have of you. But then again, how could you if you are not born again. Sorry.

Originally Posted by Arsenios View Post
Then you are UN-faithful, and learning HOW to be faithful...

Saints are NOT UN-faithful...

Try again!

Arsenios

I can't stand anyone mis-representing what I write __ and then using such mis-representation against me for personal advantage. Get my drift? That is dishonest.

 

[TFTn5280]

Understandable... The post to which you replied is the whole point of thSo it moved from your bapt- and epi- root meanings to the restoration of the human hypostasis in Christ's human Hypostasis, to our entry into Christ in Christ's Baptism, in which our human hypostasis is created anew conjoined with Christ's Hypostasis...

Hypostasis means Person...

This is why genuinely Orthodox folks are so insufferably GENUINE...



Perhaps in this you have caught the shift from epi- to bapt-...

For prior to the incarnation of Christ, the Holy Spirit "came upon" God's OT Holy Ones, as He did "come upon" the Blessed Virgin when she conceived Christ into the flesh in her blessed womb... The Old Testament Saints retained unchanged their Hypostases [Persons] after the visitation of the Holy Spirit, even though now they were "lit up" in the Glory, the Power, of the Holy Spirit. Moses' shining face comes to mind...

But now, instead of the Spirit coming EPI- the person of the Saint, instead we have the person BAPT- INTO the Person of Christ, in the Baptismal Waters of Regeneration... In those Waters man puts on Christ, having been purified of all defilement in them...

This is how we enter into the Promised Land, the Kingdom of Heaven, Christ our God... And it is why Christ was baptized by John's fleshy and human hands in Jordan's waters, which form the boundary of the Promised Land of the Jews...



No difference in each one's personal faith at all - Moses doubtless had greater faith than Paul [Just my guess]... But THE Faith of Christ is what Paul had, that Moses did not have... For Paul was baptized into Christ and filled with the Holy Spirit at the hands of Ananias, who cured his blindness... And this Moses did not have, but he foresaw it coming in the future... As did David... And all the Prophets...

:think: ... I can live with that.

There is nothing vicarious about what Christians in Christ receive...

I speak in this jargon so often I sometimes assume I'm actually being understood. I am not referring to what we "receive." I am speaking of that which Christ did in incarnation on our behalf and in our stead as itself being a vicarious act: he living and dying vicariously for us.

 

[Cross Reference]

:think: ... I can live with that.




I speak in this jargon so often I sometimes assume I'm actually understandable. I am not referring to what we "receive." I am speaking of that which Christ did in incarnation on our behalf and in our stead as itself being vicarious: he living and dying vicariously for us.

I would only ask __ to what end?

 

[Krsto]

What is your definition of salvation as you believe the Bible means to convey?

See post #39

 

[Krsto]

But, you conveniently believe that is all He came to do by ignoring the other reasons He mentions, i.e., set the captives free; call sinners to repentance; heal the blind; otherwise, reveal the government of God in human flesh, et al.

My theology includes all of these.

 

[Arsenios]

I can't stand anyone mis-representing what I write __
and then using such mis-representation against me for personal advantage.
Get my drift?
That is dishonest.

Did you not write:

I am a saint ___ learning how to be faithful in Christ.

I only said that if you are still learning how to be faithful, then you are not yet faithful, and that Saints are faithful, and not unfaithful ones still learning how to be faithful...

I mean, by your own words, you claim to be not faithful, but still learning HOW to be faithful...

Forgive me for offending you...

Arsenios

 

[Cross Reference]

My theology includes all of these.

My short reply would be you believe salvation to be all about man - you..

 

[Arsenios]

:think: ... I can live with that.

Me too!

I speak in this jargon so often I sometimes assume I'm actually understandable.

It is a jargon foreign to my ears...

I am not referring to what we "receive."

Oh... OK... I thought that was kinda the whole point of the difference between Old and New Testament Salvation... eg That we receive something different in the New that the Old did not bestow...

I am speaking of that which Christ did in incarnation on our behalf and in our stead as itself being a vicarious act: he living and dying vicariously for us.

Yes - That is VERY foreign to my ears... We understand that Christ, in His incarnation, took on Him-SELF the WHOLE human nature which He received from the Blessed Virgin... And in this ONE human nature He lived utterly without sin and thereby overcame death in THAT particular body, His Own... And ONLY in His Own Body... Not in yours or mine or any of His contemporaries...

And that is why, when He died on the Cross and descended into Hades, [where John the Forerunner was already foretelling His imminent arrival to those therein], He was able, in His human nature, to OVERCOME DEATH AND HADES, and release those held there by the power of death...

It is because He ONLY overcame Death in Himself that we who are to be saved need to be baptized INTO HIM becoming members of His Body, the Ekklesia, which continues in Him upon this earth after He ascended to the Father... (And He shall come again...)

So we see nothing vicarious in this at all, but instead see Christ our God coming for us and saving us from the wiles of the enemy that seeks our total destruction along with himself (or ITself, which is probably more accurate...)

So that He did not die vicariously in our place, but died sinlessly so as to overcome Death by His Death on the Cross, into which we are baptized, that we should follow Him, taking up our own crosses daily in denial of self, and calling on the Name of the Lord...

A little different from your formulaics, this one, yes?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

...You believe salvation to be all about... you..

Mat_15:18
But those things which proceed out of the mouth
come forth from the heart;
and they defile the man.


A.

 

[Arsenios]

I can't stand anyone mis-representing what I write __

Sound pretty "walking on eggshells" touchy to me...

Do you have a quick temper to match?

I mean, CR, people can misunderstand and thereby misrepresent...

It happens all the time here...

It does not help to flip out every time it happens...

Arsenios

 

[Nang]

So that He did not die vicariously in our place, but died sinlessly so as to overcome Death by His Death on the Cross, into which we are baptized, that we should follow Him, taking up our own crosses daily in denial of self, and calling on the Name of the Lord...

A little different from your formulaics, this one, yes?

Arsenios

How could Jesus die sinlessly, when our sins were put upon Him, and He bore them unto death? Isaiah Chapter 53 (Substitutional Atonement)

He not only overcame death, but He died our deaths, in our stead, achieving and purchasing our eternal Justification? (Penal Atonement)

 

[TFTn5280]

I would only ask __ to what end?

I guess if I could sum it up, I would say to produce in us the righteousness of God in him.

 

[TFTn5280]

Me too!



It is a jargon foreign to my ears...



Oh... OK... I thought that was kinda the whole point of the difference between Old and New Testament Salvation... eg That we receive something different in the New that the Old did not bestow...



Yes - That is VERY foreign to my ears... We understand that Christ, in His incarnation, took on Him-SELF the WHOLE human nature which He received from the Blessed Virgin... And in this ONE human nature He lived utterly without sin and thereby overcame death in THAT particular body, His Own... And ONLY in His Own Body... Not in yours or mine or any of His contemporaries...

And that is why, when He died on the Cross and descended into Hades, [where John the Forerunner was already foretelling His imminent arrival to those therein], He was able, in His human nature, to OVERCOME DEATH AND HADES, and release those held there by the power of death...

It is because He ONLY overcame Death in Himself that we who are to be saved need to be baptized INTO HIM becoming members of His Body, the Ekklesia, which continues in Him upon this earth after He ascended to the Father... (And He shall come again...)

So we see nothing vicarious in this at all, but instead see Christ our God coming for us and saving us from the wiles of the enemy that seeks our total destruction along with himself (or ITself, which is probably more accurate...)

So that He did not die vicariously in our place, but died sinlessly so as to overcome Death by His Death on the Cross, into which we are baptized, that we should follow Him, taking up our own crosses daily in denial of self, and calling on the Name of the Lord...

A little different from your formulaics, this one, yes?

Arsenios

What he did in human flesh, he did for human flesh (in both instances flesh being the entirety of who we as humans are ~ sin, sickness, psychosis, everything that we are). It is the for aspect that I refer to as having been vicarious (I wonder if this may be a semantic problem and not one of disagreement).

The in aspect is the ontological aspect of atonement. What he did vicariously for humanity, he did ontologically in humanity.

The in and the for must be held inseparably linked.

The 19th century Scottish theologian John Mcleod Campbell is particularly helpful on this point.

 

[Arsenios]

What he did in human flesh, he did for human flesh (in both instances flesh being the entirety of who we as humans are ~ sin, sickness, psychosis, everything that we are).

He did no sin, and therefore in His human nature He had no death in Him, and no sickness, and no psychosis... Even hanging on the Cross, He had to give up His Soul in order to die... His Body was not separated from His Soul by the Cross...

This assessment you have proffered is simply in error... I would guess that it came from the Scripture that states "He became sin for our sakes..." And this means He became a sin-offering to His Father, and not, as the followers of Luther suppose, a muscle mass of the writhing sin of all mankind while being punuished upon the Cross...

It was nothing like that at all... He even told Judas to betray Him "more quickly"... He ASCENDED the Cross to TRIUMPH over Death FOR us IN His Own Body...

Our differences are not merely semantic...

It is the for aspect that I refer to as having been vicarious (I wonder if this may be a semantic problem and not one of disagreement).

I hope you will revisit this understanding...

The in aspect is the ontological aspect of atonement. What he did vicariously for humanity, he did ontologically in humanity.

That is true, in order that man IN Him would be free from the rulership of sin and death...

The in and the for must be held inseparably linked.

Agreed - It is the vicarious that is problematic...

The 19th century Scottish theologian John Mcleod Campbell is particularly helpful on this point.

I have not read him...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

How could Jesus die sinlessly, when our sins were put upon Him, and He bore them unto death? Isaiah Chapter 53 (Substitutional Atonement)

He not only overcame death, but He died our deaths, in our stead, achieving and purchasing our eternal Justification? (Penal Atonement)

When you look in the LXX OT texts, "hamartia" is translated "sin offering"... This is the reference term for the first century Christian usage of this term... It means "sin" in Greek, yes, but not in the Greek of the LXX to which this term refers in the Greek Text of the NT...

All the animal blood sacrifices of the Jews were sin offerings - And their fulfillment in Christ is for Christ Himself to BE that offering, once, for all, eternal and never to be repeated...

Arsenios