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<I need a break from all this confusion. Maybe later when the water is more clear.>
ECT SALVATION: OLD TESTAMENT VS NEW
- Thread starter Arsenios
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TFTn5280
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Question, Arsenios:
In my studies, especially of the Greek language (although I was told that the same concept holds true in Hebrew), I was taught that the derivative of epi, English "upon," contains the idea of being immersed in water, specifically the wetness of the water contacting every point of exterior surface: above, below, and around. That, I was taught, was the concept that I should take to my understanding of the Spirit coming upon Saints in the OT, even the NT prior to Pentecost. So I have held that concept.
Here's an interesting statement. In an interpretive aside offered by St John to our Lord's promise of living water to those who believe in him (water which, BTW, would be digested internally), John wrote: "This he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified."
My question: what in your mind is the difference, if any, between the Holy Spirit immersing, epi, OT believers and indwelling, as in ingesting, believers after Christ's glorification; He being Christ in us, the hope of Glory?
EDIT: I ask this question because earlier I heard you say that we had not the ability to discern the difference between the two, and then to me you seemed to indicate that the two were identical.
In my studies, especially of the Greek language (although I was told that the same concept holds true in Hebrew), I was taught that the derivative of epi, English "upon," contains the idea of being immersed in water, specifically the wetness of the water contacting every point of exterior surface: above, below, and around. That, I was taught, was the concept that I should take to my understanding of the Spirit coming upon Saints in the OT, even the NT prior to Pentecost. So I have held that concept.
Here's an interesting statement. In an interpretive aside offered by St John to our Lord's promise of living water to those who believe in him (water which, BTW, would be digested internally), John wrote: "This he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified."
My question: what in your mind is the difference, if any, between the Holy Spirit immersing, epi, OT believers and indwelling, as in ingesting, believers after Christ's glorification; He being Christ in us, the hope of Glory?
EDIT: I ask this question because earlier I heard you say that we had not the ability to discern the difference between the two, and then to me you seemed to indicate that the two were identical.
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Levolor
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Agreed. Can't ignore any scripture. These that you bring up has me thinking of:
As the deer pants for the water brooks,
So pants my soul for You, O God. Psalm 42:1
And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart. Jeremiah 29:13
“Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking beautiful pearls, 46 who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had and bought it. Matthew 13:45, 46
And so it is.
From the darkness of not understanding, one must walk through the sea of distress... what some may call the dark night of the soul... to come out on the other end with the pearl of great price and into glorious light.
One thing I have noticed is that far too many give up right at the point that if they had hung in there just a little longer, the prize would have been obtained.
And, then, there is also the sadness of seeing those who had been tricked by a trickster spirit into believing that they were hearing from God... and never progressed past the second heaven.
These type things, I believe, is the tragedy of Protestantism. Maybe not always, but all too often. And then there are other outcomes too, but! it seems I shall never be short of prayers to say.
It would be good if all of Christendom had the guidance of those who had walked the path before. Would be a blessing.
TFTn5280
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Yes, I have read "On the Incarnation." And I can certainly understand why the pages were all yellow. It is sad that in the west we were not brought up under Athanasius as we have been by Augustine. I love Athanasius and Gregory Nazianzen especially of the Patristics.
I do not recall the particular reading from Athanasius which contained his thoughts in regards to life and death. It was outlined in a lecture I received in Seminary. I do still have the notes and I would be glad to sift back through them if you like. The experience I'm sure would be edifying for us both.
Arsenios
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One of the biggest mis-translations in English Christianity was that given in the KJV of the Lord's Prayer of the term "epiousios artos" as "Daily Bread"... And western scholars have been trying to justify it ever since... EPI means "down from above" which equals "upon"... As you know, ousios means essence, and the term can only be properly translated as "super-essential Bread, and this means Christ, His Body, the Bread of Life, which we eat in Holy Communion...
The Indwelling of Christ in us is an hypostatic fact, which is given to us when we are BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST... This is what gives us Christ as the RENEWAL of our fallen hypostasis which we inherit from the Fall of Adam... Hypostasis means Person... When we are REBORN from above, we are JOINED together with Christ in an Enhypostatic Union... WHO we ARE CHANGES... It is not about Power, which the Holy Spirit gave to all the OT Saints, but who retained their fallen selves as their hypostases, but is about the New Creation which we BECOME in our persons [hypostases] by our being joined together with Christ IN His Body, the Church, wherein we ARE Baptized by Christ... Power may or may not come later, according to the purposing of God and the actions of the one so baptized...
The "old man" is still around until death, so that our living of ever-repentant lives enduring to the end is an essential feature of the living of a Life in Christ, because the world and its demonic rulership hates us and is ever trying to trip us into sin from the freedom in Christ which we enjoy, even and especially in the midst of tribulations...
Making any sense?
Arsenios
ps - Is Thomas your name?
Krsto
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He came for the sick.
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A Christian does not sin. Why? Because his affections, by the Holy Spirit, are set on things above, not on the earth. What does that entail a Christian pursue that such union in the Father be made effective in his life?
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What is your definition of salvation as you believe the Bible means to convey?
Krsto
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Ad hominem to avoid the issue?
Jesus was the one who said it. Did you read those verses? Jesus came for the sick, some were sick (sinful) enough to be wicked and not acceptable to God. Everybody has sin and needs to be saved from sin here today. Today is the day of salvation.
I think I said as much already but it's going to take some effort to think differently.
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Arsenios
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Exactly - He did not come for the righteous, but to call sinners to repentance... And if you are a doer of sin, you are sin-sick... And it is for YOU that Christ came, that you should turn from your sins in repentance, amending your life, and gain the Kingdom of Heaven on earth, which is the Ekklesia of God, the Body of Christ, the Apostolic Church of Christ on earth...
Arsenios
Arsenios
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It's a good thing that we don't throw accusations around casually...
Don't you agree?
A.
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So what about the righteous __ where does that leave them? Nicodemus was righteous. What did Jesus say to him?
are you mad?
aren't we all sinners?
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NO! That is a fact. Why seek to make excuses re why we don't pursue that path?
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I am a saint ___ learning how to be faithful in Christ.
but you are a christian who does not sin?
can you explain how you are not a sinner?