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I hope you are not overlooking Abraham's bosom, paradise where the righteous dead in lieu of heaven..were sent?
ECT SALVATION: OLD TESTAMENT VS NEW
- Thread starter Arsenios
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I hope you are not overlooking Abraham's bosom, paradise where the righteous dead in lieu of heaven..were sent?
WonderfulLordJesus
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Matthew 22
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
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What is what?
WonderfulLordJesus
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Luke 16
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
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Did you understand the passage? The WHOLE passage? If so you would have known.
But then again, I believe you did and only want to argue.
WonderfulLordJesus
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And who can improve on God's clear, pure word? I could never, and the issue is always,
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Spending one's life in vain bickering is also just a senseless waste, actually a sign of borderline sociopathic issues, not spirituality.
Levolor
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Good Afternoon to you!
Yes. I totally agree; it is a big deal.
This leads me into asking you something that I have wondered for the past couple of days what the Orthodoxy answer would be, and have had the intention of asking you. Sure, I could have googled, but the time has now presented itself! Praise God~Hallelujah! Isn't that just like God?
Does Orthodoxy have anything to say about the dark night of the soul wherein (here comes the answer to your question...) the soul that sins dies? (Ezekiel 18:20a)
Blessings to you always.
TFTn5280
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In the OT faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness. Via that illustration, we realize that it was the same faith that was credited to all the OT saints (see Heb 11), righteousness credited to them as well. But what was the substance of that faith, and of that righteousness? Post haste after the declaration that his faith had opened the door to righteousness, Abraham asked God for some kind of evidence that HE, God, was serious about this faith concept, so in response God told Abraham to prepare a "blood-cut" sacrifice, separating the pieces that they might pass through them, thereby establishing a covenant between them that would NEVER be broken and would find fulfillment in Abraham's seed (sperm). Abraham did what God requested and cut the pieces. But at the time that they were to pass through the pieces, establishing the covenant between the two of them, God caused a conscious stupor to fall upon Abraham. Abraham, conscious but unable to move, watched as two representatives passed through the blood-soaked ground of that offering. There the Father established a covenant with his Son ~ the Son representing Abraham and through him all the nations, thus everybody ~ that would never be broken.
I am certain that Abraham came out of that experience knowing full well that the Son would go to his death for him and those whom he represented in his seed, the Son, his Seed, being the representation of both himself and the blood-soaked sacrifice of that offering. We may know this via Hebrews 11 where we learn that the faithful obedience that led Abraham to sacrifice his own son of promise, was shrouded in his belief that Isaac God would resurrect, the Seed promise must having to pass through him to find fulfillment.
Via St Paul in the NT we meet that "Seed" sigular in Jesus Christ, he the one who fulfilled the covenant, establishing its everlasting substance, the substance of OT faith, Christ himself being the fidelity of the wavering faith both of those OT saints and ourselves by faith in him. In the same context that Paul writes of Christ being that Seed (sperma), he writes these words: "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live, yet not I but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith, the faithfulness of the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me" (my translation: Gal 2.20).
In the startling words of St Paul our hunches are confirmed: the blood-cut covenant between God and Abraham was Unilateral in nature. God himself in the underlying hypostaseis of Father and Son acted in unison to bring to fulfillment the covenant cut with us all, via Abraham in our own stupor. By faith we all enter into the covenant already vicariously fulfilled on our behalf by the faithfulness of the Son of God to his Father.
Therefore there is but one salvation: that provided for us, fully fulfilled in Jesus Christ. Now in that fulfillment we may rest in surety via the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that our faith too is reckoned to us as righteousness, in the faithfulness of the Son of God who loves us and gave himself for us, Christ being the substance both of our faith and our righteousness.
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Krsto
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My good man, if you will read the relevant passage in Romans regarding "original sin" you will see that the ONLY thing Adam's transgression determined was the penalty for sin, which was death. Jesus' teaching reveals that that death is not eternal for all men. He taught those who love God and love man will inherit eternal life. Eternal life starts today. Funny how there is no such term as "eternal death". Ever wonder why?
Arsenios
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God did not come looking for Adam until AFTER Adam 'committed the deed'...
God never needs or wants to find you - You are always before Him...
It is YOU who NEED the FINDING of God...
Sin loves to hide...
As Adam hid...
And covered himself...
In shame...
God did not ask "Adam where ARE you?" because He did not know exactly where Adam was, but did so for ADAM's benefit... But Adam remained unrepentant...
Not in His HUMAN NATURE...
Human nature needs ministering...
Arsenios
Arsenios
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Arsenios
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So then is David speaking falsely when he asks God to RESTORE unto him the JOY OF THY SALVATION??
You have not accounted for the Salvation which David had, then lost when he sinned, and regained when he repented...
Back at ya!
A.
Arsenios
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Good Afternoon to you!
You woke up finally...
'Tain't gittin' no smaler neither...
The LXX reads literally: "The sinning soul shall die." It is referring to the fate of that soul at the Last Judgement... Where the wicked shall be deprived of God's Right Hand... It is the second death... The first is separation from body... The second is separation from God... We are baptized into the first... And through obedience to Christ in the Faith of Christ, we do not taste of the second, nor even the first, though we die a martyr's death in the teeth of wild beasts...
I have gone through the "dark night of the soul" in this life, and gave up my life there, and was reborn... But the real rebirth came when I was baptized into Christ...
And the difference was NOT the presence vs absence of the Holy Spirit... And it is this difference that this thread is about...
Arsenios
Arsenios
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I did that - I quoted you the words he himself wrote in Psalm 51 [our Psalm 50]... He cannot say those words without having HAD the Joy of God's Salvation before he was DEPRIVED of it when he committed murder and adultery...
OK - Then you do not have a basis to say that there was no Salvation in the Old Testament...
Arsenios
TFTn5280
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Somewhere we must work these words into our narrative. In the middle of his story, Job declares, "For I know that my Kinnsmen Redeemer lives (go'el and he shall stand at last on the earth. And after my skin is destroyed, this I know: That in my flesh I shall see God, whom I shall see for myself, and my eyes shall behold, and not another. How my heart yearns within me" (Job 19.25-27).