Robert's Gospel According to the Apostle Paul

[clefty]

Jacob, you are in the same boat with John W. and others. You are in denial of what the scriptures are saying. The Bible plainly teaches that Jesus abolished the law. If you cannot believe the Bible then you are like a ship without a rudder. You, John W. and others will go into the judgment and will be judged and condemned by the law, simply because you are under it.

Which is it Bobby?

the Law is abolished...so no one sins anymore

Or ALL will go into judgement by that law?

 

[Robert Pate]

I am not under the law Robert Pate. I am saved and justified by the blood of Jesus. I am teaching you how you are wrong. You can prove me wrong or share your experience with the verse, but something about the scripture that I have shared may be good. Shalom. Peace. Jacob

You are under the law. All that are subject to the law and try to keep the law are under the law. If you believed God's word you would know that the law has been abolished. Yet you continue to observe the law, which means that you are under it and will be judged by it.

 

[Robert Pate]

Which is it Bobby?

the Law is abolished...so no one sins anymore

Or ALL will go into judgement by that law?

All that observe the law are under the law and will be judged by it.

 

[glorydaz]

Jacob, you are in the same boat with John W. and others. You are in denial of what the scriptures are saying. The Bible plainly teaches that Jesus abolished the law. If you cannot believe the Bible then you are like a ship without a rudder. You, John W. and others will go into the judgment and will be judged and condemned by the law, simply because you are under it.

Why, in God's name, do you do this, Robert?

With your own shovel, you have dug a deep hole and isolated yourself from the body. Semantics....you're playing a game of semantics, and don't even realize you're doing it.

Why do we preach the law to unbelievers?
So they will see their guilt and turn to the Lord with faith.


Why do we tell unbelievers that Jesus Christ died for sin?

If the law has been abolished, we wouldn't be able to tell men of their need for a Saviour.
You can't preach peace with God without preaching the law of sin and death.

I know what you're trying to say, but you don't say it. You say just enough to get yourself into hot water. A half a truth is a full lie, Robert. :sigh:

 

[clefty]

All that observe the law are under the law and will be judged by it.

RIGHT...so please DONT EVER AGAIN SAY THE LAW WAS ABOLISHED OR DONE AWAY WITH AS IT IS STILL OBSERVED...AND ALL WILL BE JUDGED BY IT...AS ALL HAVE SINNED...

THINK NOT...He taught...so don’t...

Sorry my cap button got stuck for a bit there...

 

[glorydaz]

All that observe the law are under the law and will be judged by it.

Ah, observing the law or not.

You need to stick with that, instead of saying the Law has been abolished.

 

[Jacob]

You are under the law. All that are subject to the law and try to keep the law are under the law. If you believed God's word you would know that the law has been abolished. Yet you continue to observe the law, which means that you are under it and will be judged by it.

I am not under the law, whether I keep it or not. I do believe that it is important to obey God. But it is your choice to say that I cannot be keeping the law. I have nothing to boast in.

 

[Jacob]

All that observe the law are under the law and will be judged by it.

No. To be under the law, to observe it, and to be judged by it are all different.

 

[Rosenritter]

Not so fast there buddy! Speeding ticket for you haha... Here is a real life application on a live state web to that definition:

“If you receive a city or town ordinance or bylaw violation ticket, you have 21 days to pay it. Otherwise, you need to request a hearing within 21 days. Fines can be up to $300, and vary depending on the ordinance or bylaw.

The procedure for paying a fine varies depending on whether or not the town who issued the ticket has adopted G.L. c. 40U, which allows cities and towns more control over enforcing penalties, particularly for violations of ordinances or bylaws about sanitation, housing, and snow and ice removal.”

So you can readily see that the ordinance is only a small part of the over all state law...locally enforced and specifically applied.

Except that your story is entirely irrelevant.

"Law" and "ordinance" are synonyms in scripture and not subject to peculiar redefinition in analogy to the U.S. state or federal criminal code, and the context of the passage in question is most especially not written in the sense of seeking exceptions. The context of Colossians 2:14 defines "ordinances" for us as including meats, drinks, holy days, new moons, and sabbath days.

Colossians 2:14-16 KJV
(14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
(15) And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
(16) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

So is verse 16 listing things that ARE examples of ordinances, or things that are NOT examples of ordinances? I am guessing you are claiming the latter, because otherwise you would be admitting that both holy days (high sabbaths) and sabbath days (weekly sabbaths) were nailed to the cross. But what saith the scripture?

Exodus 12:14 KJV
(14) And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.

Exodus 12:17 KJV
(17) And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day in your generations by an ordinance for ever.



The holy days are certainly ordinances, and "meat" and "drink' and "holy days" and "new moons" and "sabbaths" are all part of the same group already generally referred to as "ordinances" in Col 2:16.

So back to your questioning...

so by its very definition the ordinance is exactly only PART of the Law...the part that is activated by a violation of a zone or lesser law even...to a or of a LESSER governmental body...such as a town municipality etc.

Spoiler

So it is a lesser violation to a lesser law of a lesser governmental body...

I mean imagine the federal government sentencing you to death for a town noise violation...abuse yes?

So back to that text so horribly tortured by yours to argue the SUPREME LAW of Yah is abolished...

Col 2:14 as already discussed this handwritten ordinance or requirement or debt or decree or charges...(look up the various translations yourself) is indeed blotted out and entirely...done away with...nailed to the cross

We've already covered that ground; ordinance does not mean "a requirement of debt" and includes the annual sabbaths (the holy days) which are grouped together with "meats" and "sabbaths" as being blotted out.

You need to decide whether you worship the Creator or the creation which can fade away, the Lawgiver or the law which has been blotted out. The Creator has the right to kill or raise up again, the Lawgiver has the right to create laws and to abolish. A choice to cling to the law that has been blotted out is akin to idolatry, worshiping the thing over its Maker.

But in no way is the entirety of the ETERNAL LAW removed or as I and others here at TOL and elsewhere assert if it were abolished then HOW WOULD WE KNOW SIN AND OUR NEED OF HIM HIS SALVATION?

1. The "Ten Commandments" and the "Law of Moses" are not "eternal law" ...

2. The need for salvation is clearly illustrated for every living creature. We are subject to death. We die, and we perish, and we obviously cannot save ourselves. If you strive for salvation and eternal life, you should listen to the words of someone who has prevailed against death and hell. Listen to what he has to say.

But I suppose if you are under the delusion that you have eternal life in yourself, I can see why you would see no need for salvation.

And again, as I have so often repeated, Christians normally do NOT claim they are free to steal and kill and lie etc because the Law is done away with...in fact WWJD?! is their mantra...however when I bring up the seventh day Sabbath it all falls apart and suddenly it’s “the law is abolished...we are under grace.“ LOL

Straw man argument.

We are plainly told that the laws against us are nailed to the cross and the law of commandments is abolished...

Please show me which translation says that:

New International Version
having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.

[insert spam]

Spoiler

New Living Translation
He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross.

English Standard Version
by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

Berean Study Bible
having canceled the debt ascribed to us in the decrees that stood against us. He took it away, nailing it to the cross!

Berean Literal Bible
having blotted out the handwriting in the decrees against us, which was adverse to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

New American Standard Bible
having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

King James Bible
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Christian Standard Bible
He erased the certificate of debt, with its obligations, that was against us and opposed to us, and has taken it away by nailing it to the cross.

Contemporary English Version
God wiped out the charges that were against us for disobeying the Law of Moses. He took them away and nailed them to the cross.

Good News Translation
he canceled the unfavorable record of our debts with its binding rules and did away with it completely by nailing it to the cross.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
He erased the certificate of debt, with its obligations, that was against us and opposed to us, and has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the cross.

International Standard Version
having erased the charges that were brought against us, along with their obligations that were hostile to us. He took those charges away when he nailed them to the cross.

NET Bible
He has destroyed what was against us, a certificate of indebtedness expressed in decrees opposed to us. He has taken it away by nailing it to the cross.

New Heart English Bible
wiping out the handwriting in ordinances which was against us; and he has taken it out of the way, nailing it to the cross;

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And he has blotted out by his authority the bill of our debts which was adverse to us and he took it from the midst and nailed it to his cross.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
He did this by erasing the charges that were brought against us by the written laws God had established. He took the charges away by nailing them to the cross.

New American Standard 1977
having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Jubilee Bible 2000
blotting out the bill of the decrees that was against us, which was contrary to us and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross {Gr. stauro – stake},

King James 2000 Bible
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

American King James Version
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

American Standard Version
having blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us: and he hath taken it out that way, nailing it to the cross;

Douay-Rheims Bible
Blotting out the handwriting of the decree that was against us, which was contrary to us. And he hath taken the same out of the way, fastening it to the cross:

Darby Bible Translation
having effaced the handwriting in ordinances which [stood out] against us, which was contrary to us, he has taken it also out of the way, having nailed it to the cross;

English Revised Version
having blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us: and he hath taken it out of the way, nailing it to the cross;

Webster's Bible Translation
Blotting out the hand-writing of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Weymouth New Testament
The bond, with its requirements, which was in force against us and was hostile to us, He cancelled, and cleared it out of the way, nailing it to His Cross.

World English Bible
wiping out the handwriting in ordinances which was against us; and he has taken it out of the way, nailing it to the cross;

Young's Literal Translation
having blotted out the handwriting in the ordinances that is against us, that was contrary to us, and he hath taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross;”

So did you find one that said the Law was abolished? Btw Typically the L in law is capitalized when referring to the LAW the 10 big ones

Most certainly did.

2 Corinthians 3:6-16 KJV
(6) Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
(7) But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
(8) How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
(9) For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
(10) For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
(11) For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
(12) Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
(13) And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
(14) But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
(15) But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
(16) Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.


Did you catch that?

1. The New Testament is being compared to the Old Testament (verse 6)
2. That which was engraven in stone is also called the "ministration of death" ... only the Ten Commandments were in stone.
3. Paul says that this ministration of death written and engraven in stone was to be done away. (verse 7)
3. The "ministration of death" is also called the "ministration of condemnation" (verse 9) but also called "glorious" (verses 7, 9)
4. That which was glorious (that ministration of death engraven in stone) is done away (again but now in verse 11)
5. Paul even says that the children of Israel do not comprehend that which is abolished but are currently blinded (verses 13, 14)

ABOLISHED.

So did you see it?...where does it say what you want it to say ”the Law was abolished”?...what Christendom has false witnessed about for thousands of years?

Sure did. You should try reading the letters to the Corinthians more often. Paul says that those who claim that the law is not abolished are blinded, and that blindness will be lifted when the turn to Christ. (2 Cor 3:16).

(Ever notice the awesome collection of verses you get if you collect all of the 3:16 passages together?)

asked and answered...we are not to be judged for keeping them as non believing jews would not care if believers were NOT keeping them...duh...

yes and that new covenant was taught and modeled by the testator Himself as His last will and testament and then He died signing it with His blood and sealing it with his death...you are NOT allowed by law to change last wills and testaments...so...why all the changes?

You seem to have created an entirely fictitious New Covenant, one which you claim is like the old, whereas we are told it is not like the old (see Hebrews chapter 8).

DONE...the Law remains the tickets are paid for...if the Law was done away with then nobody post DBR would be ticketed...duh

it is enough He modeled it and we are created to be in His image...as even secular couples who love each other do the same thing together

it remains holy and sanctified and a memorial and a sign of His people...and remains for His people Heb 4:9

Do you even know what Hebrews 4:9 is talking about? It doesn't seem that you do. Jesus (or in the Hebrew, Joshua the son of Nun) did not give them rest, so this obviously is not talking about a seventh day Sabbath or even an annual Sabbath. Are you just grabbing any passage with the word "rest" and hoping it will evolve into some sort of proof? Like the mythical primordial slime into bananas and chimpanzees?

wasn’t arguing that but you are right it is in the OT...Yahushua was teaching the spiritual inner man about it all...not just external actions but an inner transformed circumcised heart...the goal of the as demonstrated by Him hence He is the goal of the Law...

and yet all of the 10 laws are rearranged into the new...and others besides

I cannot recall any place where we are told that the "Ten Commandments" are rearranged into a New Covenant. To the contrary, we are told that the New Covenant is not like the old, and that which is "blotted out" includes sabbaths, and holy days, and new moons, and meats. That's pretty much everything.

right and the new covenant has all 10 as He taught and demonstrated...then was killed for the demonstration but sealing that new covenant around the same laws now written in hearts and minds and led by the Holy Spirit into keeping...

Fabrication.

Ok...so how come you only wish to keep 9 of the 10 laws?

Straw man argument. I said that none of those laws engraved in stone are in force. Paul said they were abolished and blotted out and nailed to the cross. Peter called it a yoke which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear. I choose to agree with Peter and Paul, trust that the scriptures are indeed inspired and profitable for doctrine, and to obey the commandments of Jesus: love God, love thy neighbor, love one another, love thy enemies.

Galatians 5:14 KJV
(14) For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


So here's where it comes down to a choice. You can continue as always and just slough the scripture like 99% of the TOL folk here do and maintain the veil on your heart when Moses is read: choose to worship the Sabbath (abolished) over the Lord of the Sabbath (Christ.) On the other hand, maybe you're among the sheep which can admit to a mistake, that love God more than their own ego or self-righteousness. I've seen it happen and it's always amazing. The fulfillment of the law is far greater than the law that was abolished.

 

[Rosenritter]

Jacob, you are in the same boat with John W. and others. You are in denial of what the scriptures are saying. The Bible plainly teaches that Jesus abolished the law. If you cannot believe the Bible then you are like a ship without a rudder. You, John W. and others will go into the judgment and will be judged and condemned by the law, simply because you are under it.

2 Corinthians 3:13-14 KJV
(13) And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
(14) But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

 

[Rosenritter]

RIGHT...so please DONT EVER AGAIN SAY THE LAW WAS ABOLISHED OR DONE AWAY WITH AS IT IS STILL OBSERVED...AND ALL WILL BE JUDGED BY IT...AS ALL HAVE SINNED...

THINK NOT...He taught...so don’t...

Sorry my cap button got stuck for a bit there...

2 Corinthians 3:7 KJV
(7) But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

2 Corinthians 3:8-11
(8) How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
(9) For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
(10) For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
(11) For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

2 Corinthians 3:13-14 KJV
(13) And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
(14) But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

I'll keep saying it. The law that Moses brought down that was engraved in those stones is abolished.

 

[Rosenritter]

No. To be under the law, to observe it, and to be judged by it are all different.

You mean that I am allowed to eat unleavened bread if I wish?

 

[Jacob]

You mean that I am allowed to eat unleavened bread if I wish?

No.

I am thinking. There is a difference between keeping the law and not keeping it, but some people may not reference the law for what they do.

Unleavened Bread is eaten during the feast of Unleavened Bread. You can eat bread without leaven in it whenever you want to, except when you may not eat bread or if it must be leavened.

 

[musterion]

Ah, observing the law or not.

You need to stick with that, instead of saying the Law has been abolished.

Funny how that works, ain't it.

 

[Robert Pate]

Why, in God's name, do you do this, Robert?

With your own shovel, you have dug a deep hole and isolated yourself from the body. Semantics....you're playing a game of semantics, and don't even realize you're doing it.

Why do we preach the law to unbelievers?
So they will see their guilt and turn to the Lord with faith.


Why do we tell unbelievers that Jesus Christ died for sin?

If the law has been abolished, we wouldn't be able to tell men of their need for a Saviour.
You can't preach peace with God without preaching the law of sin and death.

I know what you're trying to say, but you don't say it. You say just enough to get yourself into hot water. A half a truth is a full lie, Robert. :sigh:

I agree that the law should be preached to unbelievers, but not to believers. Preaching the law to believers will cause them to sin, Romans 7:7-12. This is why the law has been abolished, Ephesians 2:15.

I notice that you fellowship with many religious reprobates on the Forum, which leads me to believe that you are not in the faith. The Bible and the Bible alone dictates what we believe, not what the religious reprobates teach and believe.

 

[Robert Pate]

2 Corinthians 3:13-14 KJV
(13) And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
(14) But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

Can it be that there is someone on this Forum that believes what the Bible is saying?

 

[Robert Pate]

No. To be under the law, to observe it, and to be judged by it are all different.

Who says so? All that follow the law are under the law and will be judged by it. Christians are called to live by the spirit and not the law, 2 Corinthians 3:6.

 

[clefty]

Except that your story is entirely irrelevant.

"Law" and "ordinance" are synonyms in scripture and not subject to peculiar redefinition in analogy to the U.S. state or federal criminal code, and the context of the passage in question is most especially not written in the sense of seeking exceptions.

again that speeding ticket in your hand is a law just as much as the ones in the books behind the judges. However it is AGAINST YOU...where as the bulk of the ones behind the sitting judges are FOR you.

You miss the very thing the cross was FOR...FOR YOU...breaking the laws deserved death...long list of things that deserved death...longer list of things that made one unclean and deserving to be thrown out of the camp...all of which are understood as sin or debt...

And Hebrews is clear all those sacrifices FOR you...not against you BTW...failed to remove sin...

So speeding tickets were continued to be written and needing payment...but you would have the traffic laws removed...certainly NOT...to quote Paul

The context of Colossians 2:14 defines "ordinances" for us as including meats, drinks, holy days, new moons, and sabbath days.

Colossians 2:14-16 KJV
(14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
(15) And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
(16) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

indeed defined here for us are ordinances FOR US...ha

And namely for us as a shadow to recall Who died for us to remove our debt AGAINST us.

So is verse 16 listing things that ARE examples of ordinances, or things that are NOT examples of ordinances? I am guessing you are claiming the latter, because otherwise you would be admitting that both holy days (high sabbaths) and sabbath days (weekly sabbaths) were nailed to the cross. But what saith the scripture?

Exodus 12:14 KJV
(14) And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.

Exodus 12:17 KJV
(17) And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day in your generations by an ordinance for ever.



The holy days are certainly ordinances, and "meat" and "drink' and "holy days" and "new moons" and "sabbaths" are all part of the same group already generally referred to as "ordinances" in Col 2:16.

yes indeed all ordinances FOR US...not against us...in our keeping of them

Would hate for you to be a fellow soldier next to me in times of war...you too easily confuse and conflate ordnance FOR US with ordnance in coming against us...LOL

So in NOT keeping these commands or laws...or statutes or decrees...new ordinances are then AGAINST US.

We've already covered that ground; ordinance does not mean "a requirement of debt" and includes the annual sabbaths (the holy days) which are grouped together with "meats" and "sabbaths" as being blotted out.

STOP. YOU ARE SPEEDING AGAIN. Here is your ticket LOL

we did cover this ground but you flew right past it (and at too high an altitude apparently)

you failed to show me where ONE translator in history did NOT translate what was blotted out as debt or trespass or BILL or bond or requirement

Again you conflate two lists...

the list blotted out and the list Paul counseled believers not to worry if jews complained of their keeping it...”let no one judge you” in fact “but the body of Christ”

Seriously...do you think non believing gentiles would judge believing gentiles for NOT keeping these ordinances...(unless even non believing gentiles knew the believers SHOULD be keeping them)

Non believing gentiles would judge only IF FELLOW GENTILES WERE KEEPING THEM. (as now they were no longer gentiles but IN Him...a citizen of Israel) Is why Paul said “don’t worry about it”...for their keeping of them...

Or-

Do you think non believing jews would judge believing gentiles for NOT keeping these festivals and meats? I mean, their synagogues wouldn’t even be crowded...

How about believing jews...oh wait they ARE TO JUDGE as they belong to the body of Christ...citizens of Israel which Paul made clear goys were grafted into...made one with

And who better to judge in their keeping than the former jews now IN HIM and thus no longer jews...

You need to decide whether you worship the Creator or the creation which can fade away, the Lawgiver or the law which has been blotted out.

you need...lol

I worship the Creator with all He has given me...His memorial to His creation included...and it won’t pass away until ALL is fulfilled...

The Creator has the right to kill or raise up again,

oh sure but happily He is all about Love and mercy and graciously He has given us a list of things that please Him...AND His Father...In Him and with the His Spirit we are keeping that list and now less inclined to provoke His jealous Wrath...because in keeping that list we are more like Him...duh

After all we were created in His image...not just to look like Him but to live as He lives...

the Lawgiver has the right to create laws and to abolish.

oh sure but there are some Laws that are merely Him His character His Name Who He is and a description of what life is like where He is...abolishing those Laws would be impossible as well...He is immortal

Pity the fool who thinks He is Lawless and can enter His Presence with sin...

A choice to cling to the law that has been blotted out is akin to idolatry, worshiping the thing over its Maker.

idolatry that is abolished OT Law right? So you judge with an abolished law?

1. The "Ten Commandments" and the "Law of Moses" are not "eternal law" ...

again and again you miss that they are descriptions of Him and life with Him...not just “thou shalt not”s...I mean you WILL NOT be doing any of those then WITH HIM why not get used to doing it here on earth as it is in heaven?

2. The need for salvation is clearly illustrated for every living creature. We are subject to death. We die, and we perish, and we obviously cannot save ourselves.

ummm yes we WERE SUBJECT to death BUT now the list of our transgressions has been covered and blotted out and now we will be PASSED OVER by His Father’s Wrath...

Yes we can NOT and DO NOT save ourselves...by keeping of the laws...we keep the laws (try) because we ARE saved and now citizens of Israel...

If you strive for salvation and eternal life, you should listen to the words of someone who has prevailed against death and hell. Listen to what he has to say.

But I suppose if you are under the delusion that you have eternal life in yourself, I can see why you would see no need for salvation.

Stop with the histrionics...I do listen to what He says “if you love Me keep My Commandments” you don’t think He was at Sinai? “Do the will of My Father”

Straw man argument.

no it is not...Christians do claim they keep the 10 commandments...Alabama just voted to display them on all state property...

And yet the seventh day Sabbath is REJECTED...something about “the laws were abolished...grace only...faith only...Spirit makes me do it” fuh fuh fuh

Most certainly did.

2 Corinthians 3:6-16 KJV
(6) Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

here we go again with another passage tortured by you...Peter warns of your type twisting Paul

We are able ministers of what in the New Testament...its Spirit? How can we minister the Spirit?

We with the Spirit minister the SAME laws that were kept by Yahushua as He demonstrated the new covenant life before He sealed the new covenant with His life...

the letter does kill as it points out sin...but only if broken...not broken it remains “do these and live”...

and technically the letter doesn’t actually kill the judgment is made by it and your transgression found by it and you are sentenced for breaking the law the letters spelled out

(7) But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
(8) How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

yup that ministration was glorious...but that GLORY was to be done away with not the law or its ministration...as now its ministration has become IN HIM

(9) For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
(10) For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
(11) For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

yes the ministration of death was done away with not the Law itself...now under new ministration

(12) Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
(13) And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face,

yes Not as Moses who had to put a vail on his face we can see the minister of this ministration of LIFE

that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

the end of this ministration the GOAL (Greek word there is “telos” as in Christ is the GOAL of the Law...again NOT end) of this ministration was death (and at that time was literally the presence of Yah which is why Moses’ face glowed so he covered it NOT the law)...that ministration of death is now abolished with a more glorious minister of that Law into LIFE...unless of course you reject Him too then it’s still death for you because you broke the still existing law AND rejected His ministration of life...

(14) But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

yup there He is...and NOW we can see this ministration of the Law is indeed not just death but LIFE just as He started with Moses and the prophets and showed them all that spoke of Him

(15) But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
(16) Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

yes when IT shall turn to the glorious ministration of Him...their blindness will be sight

Did you catch that?

1. The New Testament is being compared to the Old Testament (verse 6)

yes new contracts but same terms same laws this time not a ministry of death but with a new co-signer a minister of spirit into life...I mean this new contract has terms, rules, guidelines, by laws yes? Set by Him Who modeled what a New Testament life should look like....?

2. That which was engraven in stone is also called the "ministration of death" ... only the Ten Commandments were in stone.

happily as you would nail them to a cross in hopes to abolish them FORGETTING THAT NAILING THEM TO THE CROSS MERELY DISPLAYS TO THE WORLD WHY THE BELOW WAS BEING KILLED

I mean nailing “THEIF” to the torture stake above the criminal did not abolish Rome’s do not steal Law...right?

3. Paul says that this ministration of death written and engraven in stone was to be done away. (verse 7)

correct this ministration of death was indeed replaced...unless of course you reject the new Administrator...Paul didn’t think you would want to do that duh

3. The "ministration of death" is also called the "ministration of condemnation" (verse 9) but also called "glorious" (verses 7, 9)

of course it is glorious...imagine a bunch of rebellious sinners living forever...

4. That which was glorious (that ministration of death engraven in stone) is done away (again but now in verse 11)

yes what was passing? The ministration of death...what remains the ministry of the Spirit Unto life...indeed mor glorious...indeed HalleluYah!

5. Paul even says that the children of Israel do not comprehend that which is abolished but are currently blinded (verses 13, 14)

yup...they only see GLORY as the ministration of death so they gotta keep it covered...and NOT by His BLOOD

Please read more slowly that the veil used when reading the Old Testament is taken away and NOT that which is being read...ok?

And that EVEN TO THIS DAY...when Moses is read a veil blinds you guys...you don’t see the OT is affirmed by the NT

ABOLISHED.
Yup...that old ministration of death is...now we have a new Administrator...reject Him though and well...ya know...

Sure did. You should try reading the letters to the Corinthians more often. Paul says that those who claim that the law is not abolished are blinded, and that blindness will be lifted when the turn to Christ. (2 Cor 3:16).

yup that veil when reading the Law will be removed not the Law itself...again HalleluYah!...we still know how to please Him...we want to for saving us

(Ever notice the awesome collection of verses you get if you collect all of the 3:16 passages together?)

hmmm...”for Yah so loved the world (OT) that He gave His only begotten Son (NT) that whosoever (just like in the OT) should believe in Him (NT) should not perish (because the OT Law is still valid) but have everlasting life. (NT) nice ...thanks

You seem to have created an entirely fictitious New Covenant, one which you claim is like the old, whereas we are told it is not like the old (see Hebrews chapter 8).

What’s fictitious about a last will and testament NOT being able to be changed after the testator is dead...

Yahushua demonstrated and taught what a new covenant age lifestyle should look like...and yet you would rather the traditions of man and jewish false witness...as if stephen and Paul taught He altered the very customs He lived...or made any of it NOT applicable to gentiles...IN HIM and according to HIS WAYS are now citizens of Israel adopted and grafted...

Do you even know what Hebrews 4:9 is talking about? It doesn't seem that you do. Jesus (or in the Hebrew, Joshua the son of Nun) did not give them rest, so this obviously is not talking about a seventh day Sabbath or even an annual Sabbath. Are you just grabbing any passage with the word "rest" and hoping it will evolve into some sort of proof? Like the mythical primordial slime into bananas and chimpanzees?

I thought you were wanting a serious discussion about this...LOL remember you saying that? Typical Pharisee...

So stop with the histrionics

Heb 4:9 uses “sabbatismos” NOT even a true Greek word...and is translated as a SABBATH KEEPING...

So there literally remains Sabbath keeping for His people...are you His people or not?

I cannot recall any place where we are told that the "Ten Commandments" are rearranged into a New Covenant.

Oh? How about all those OT laws listed to do in order to be saved...or further lists in following epistles...you really think we can steal and murder etc or that the crowding gentiles were NOT expected to stop stealing or killin or lying but just FOUR things (already listed in the OT btw)

LOL

To the contrary, we are told that the New Covenant is not like the old, and that which is "blotted out" includes sabbaths, and holy days, and new moons, and meats. That's pretty much everything.

pretty much? What is left? Now add to that what you try to reject...

The covenants are different as they are signed by different signers and for a different purpose...not just salvation from Egypt or temporal powers but FROM SIN...yet faith and obedience found in the laws and by laws of the contract remain...and now we have Him to complete the PURPOSE of this contract...to get us to heaven and not just the hills of geographical Jerusalem...

Fabrication.

oh yeah? So what laws are written in the hearts and minds of believers that are NOT demonstrated by Him when He asked we follow Him...and keep His commandments?

Feel free to make a two lists...those no longer for us and those that we are led into keeping by the Spirit...

Straw man argument. I said that none of those laws engraved in stone are in force. Paul said they were abolished and blotted out and nailed to the cross.

yes you did repeat that jewish fable...in error

Peter called it a yoke which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear.

Now you are SPEEDING again...

The issue in acts 15 was that judaizers came from Judea and taught UNLESS goys were circumcised you cannot be saved...later Pharisees added these goys HAD to keep the law of Moses (not the 10 btw)


So into this Peter stepped with his testimony Yah chowing Him to preach to the goyim who then heard and believed and Yah even gave them the Holy Spirit...and MADE NO DISTINCTION BETWEEN US AND THEM purifying their hearts by faith...verse 9

No you must agree if these gentiles continued killing or adulterating or stealing a distinction would be made yes? How about if they ate swine and brought it to sabbath potluck? How about worshipping on Sunday?

I think Peter would agree that would distinguish something...right?

Now the unbearable yoke judiazers tested Yah with was a NEW TEACHING that goyim HAD to be circumcised TO BE SAVED...works first see? And NOT in the Old Covenant of their fathers...

So Peter and the gang settled on FOUR things goyim HAD to do NOT TO BE SAVED but just fellowship with them in their now newly crowded synagogues

(ALL FOUR ORDINANCES WERE ALREADY ESTABLISHED FOR THE GOYIM IN THE OLD TESTAMENT BTW...)

And two of these requirements prove that even the kosher laws still applied to them...or DO you argue that swine is made clean to eat as long as it is not strangled and all the blood is removed?

James concluded these 4 things were a good start for the crowding goyim...

Funny how goyim back then WANTED to crowd synagogues to hear Moses read EVERY SABBATH...we have come a long way since the ekklessia followed the Way...and His Way

I choose to agree with Peter and Paul, trust that the scriptures are indeed inspired and profitable for doctrine, and to obey the commandments of Jesus: love God, love thy neighbor, love one another, love thy enemies.

oh good...

Yes Peter said rather we follow Yah than traditions of man...and kept kosher...

and Paul insisted we follow him as he followed Christ...keeping festivals...insisting goyim are law abiding citizens of Israel...adopted and grafted...He was following according to the Way which jews called a sect worshipping the God of his fathers believing all things which ARE written in the Law of Moses and in the Prophets...Acts 15:14 YUP even after the Cross

We are indeed to love JUST AS HE DID...His love is NOT as the world loves...He would NEVER invite you over after church for some Sunday Ham...

Yes obey the commandments of Yahushua...the ones taught and demonstrated in a covenant He signed and sealed...

Galatians 5:14 KJV
(14) For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

why even love if the Law is abolished? Why fulfill something gone destroyed gone? Oh...cuz it ain’t...WE ESTABLISH IT by our love everywhere to everyone HalleluYah

So here's where it comes down to a choice. You can continue as always and just slough the scripture like 99% of the TOL folk here do

ouch...you shur talk above yer learnin’

and maintain the veil on your heart when Moses is read:

nope the veil is abolished I can read the still here OT even better thanks...

choose to worship the Sabbath (abolished) over the Lord of the Sabbath (Christ.)

You really haven’t thought this through have you? Why would the lord of London destroy London? Or the lord of the rings his rings? They are what gives him authority and right...

On the other hand, maybe you're among the sheep which can admit to a mistake, that love God more than their own ego or self-righteousness. I've seen it happen and it's always amazing. The fulfillment of the law is far greater than the law that was abolished.

oh my...all that to merely resort to snarky projection? How underwhelming...anticlimactic indeed...

How about we end this with...

“Here are they that keep the commandments of Yah and the faith OF Yahushua”

May the Spirit lead you to Him...His Way...

 

[Rosenritter]

again that speeding ticket in your hand is a law

Spoiler

just as much as the ones in the books behind the judges. However it is AGAINST YOU...where as the bulk of the ones behind the sitting judges are FOR you.

You miss the very thing the cross was FOR...FOR YOU...breaking the laws deserved death...long list of things that deserved death...longer list of things that made one unclean and deserving to be thrown out of the camp...all of which are understood as sin or debt...

And Hebrews is clear all those sacrifices FOR you...not against you BTW...failed to remove sin...

So speeding tickets were continued to be written and needing payment...but you would have the traffic laws removed...certainly NOT...to quote Paul


indeed defined here for us are ordinances FOR US...ha

And namely for us as a shadow to recall Who died for us to remove our debt AGAINST us.

yes indeed all ordinances FOR US...not against us...in our keeping of them

Would hate for you to be a fellow soldier next to me in times of war...you too easily confuse and conflate ordnance FOR US with ordnance in coming against us...LOL

So in NOT keeping these commands or laws...or statutes or decrees...new ordinances are then AGAINST US.




STOP. YOU ARE SPEEDING AGAIN. Here is your ticket LOL

we did cover this ground but you flew right past it (and at too high an altitude apparently)

you failed to show me where ONE translator in history did NOT translate what was blotted out as debt or trespass or BILL or bond or requirement

Again you conflate two lists...

the list blotted out and the list Paul counseled believers not to worry if jews complained of their keeping it...”let no one judge you” in fact “but the body of Christ”

Seriously...do you think non believing gentiles would judge believing gentiles for NOT keeping these ordinances...(unless even non believing gentiles knew the believers SHOULD be keeping them)

Non believing gentiles would judge only IF FELLOW GENTILES WERE KEEPING THEM. (as now they were no longer gentiles but IN Him...a citizen of Israel) Is why Paul said “don’t worry about it”...for their keeping of them...

Or-

Do you think non believing jews would judge believing gentiles for NOT keeping these festivals and meats? I mean, their synagogues wouldn’t even be crowded...

How about believing jews...oh wait they ARE TO JUDGE as they belong to the body of Christ...citizens of Israel which Paul made clear goys were grafted into...made one with

And who better to judge in their keeping than the former jews now IN HIM and thus no longer jews...



you need...lol

I worship the Creator with all He has given me...His memorial to His creation included...and it won’t pass away until ALL is fulfilled...


oh sure but happily He is all about Love and mercy and graciously He has given us a list of things that please Him...AND His Father...In Him and with the His Spirit we are keeping that list and now less inclined to provoke His jealous Wrath...because in keeping that list we are more like Him...duh

After all we were created in His image...not just to look like Him but to live as He lives...

oh sure but there are some Laws that are merely Him His character His Name Who He is and a description of what life is like where He is...abolishing those Laws would be impossible as well...He is immortal

Pity the fool who thinks He is Lawless and can enter His Presence with sin...


idolatry that is abolished OT Law right? So you judge with an abolished law?



again and again you miss that they are descriptions of Him and life with Him...not just “thou shalt not”s...I mean you WILL NOT be doing any of those then WITH HIM why not get used to doing it here on earth as it is in heaven?


ummm yes we WERE SUBJECT to death BUT now the list of our transgressions has been covered and blotted out and now we will be PASSED OVER by His Father’s Wrath...

Yes we can NOT and DO NOT save ourselves...by keeping of the laws...we keep the laws (try) because we ARE saved and now citizens of Israel...



Stop with the histrionics...I do listen to what He says “if you love Me keep My Commandments” you don’t think He was at Sinai? “Do the will of My Father”

no it is not...Christians do claim they keep the 10 commandments...Alabama just voted to display them on all state property...

And yet the seventh day Sabbath is REJECTED...something about “the laws were abolished...grace only...faith only...Spirit makes me do it” fuh fuh fuh
[/spoiler]

Spoiler

here we go again with another passage tortured by you...Peter warns of your type twisting Paul

We are able ministers of what in the New Testament...its Spirit? How can we minister the Spirit?

We with the Spirit minister the SAME laws that were kept by Yahushua as He demonstrated the new covenant life before He sealed the new covenant with His life...

the letter does kill as it points out sin...but only if broken...not broken it remains “do these and live”...

and technically the letter doesn’t actually kill the judgment is made by it and your transgression found by it and you are sentenced for breaking the law the letters spelled out

yup that ministration was glorious...but that GLORY was to be done away with not the law or its ministration...as now its ministration has become IN HIM
yes the ministration of death was done away with not the Law itself...now under new ministration
yes Not as Moses who had to put a vail on his face we can see the minister of this ministration of LIFE

the end of this ministration the GOAL (Greek word there is “telos” as in Christ is the GOAL of the Law...again NOT end) of this ministration was death (and at that time was literally the presence of Yah which is why Moses’ face glowed so he covered it NOT the law)...that ministration of death is now abolished with a more glorious minister of that Law into LIFE...unless of course you reject Him too then it’s still death for you because you broke the still existing law AND rejected His ministration of life...


yup there He is...and NOW we can see this ministration of the Law is indeed not just death but LIFE just as He started with Moses and the prophets and showed them all that spoke of Him

yes when IT shall turn to the glorious ministration of Him...their blindness will be sight


yes new contracts but same terms same laws this time not a ministry of death but with a new co-signer a minister of spirit into life...I mean this new contract has terms, rules, guidelines, by laws yes? Set by Him Who modeled what a New Testament life should look like....?

happily as you would nail them to a cross in hopes to abolish them FORGETTING THAT NAILING THEM TO THE CROSS MERELY DISPLAYS TO THE WORLD WHY THE BELOW WAS BEING KILLED

I mean nailing “THEIF” to the torture stake above the criminal did not abolish Rome’s do not steal Law...right?

correct this ministration of death was indeed replaced...unless of course you reject the new Administrator...Paul didn’t think you would want to do that duh


of course it is glorious...imagine a bunch of rebellious sinners living forever...

yes what was passing? The ministration of death...what remains the ministry of the Spirit Unto life...indeed mor glorious...indeed HalleluYah!


yup...they only see GLORY as the ministration of death so they gotta keep it covered...and NOT by His BLOOD

Please read more slowly that the veil used when reading the Old Testament is taken away and NOT that which is being read...ok?

And that EVEN TO THIS DAY...when Moses is read a veil blinds you guys...you don’t see the OT is affirmed by the NT

ABOLISHED.
Yup...that old ministration of death is...now we have a new Administrator...reject Him though and well...ya know...


yup that veil when reading the Law will be removed not the Law itself...again HalleluYah!...we still know how to please Him...we want to for saving us

hmmm...”for Yah so loved the world (OT) that He gave His only begotten Son (NT) that whosoever (just like in the OT) should believe in Him (NT) should not perish (because the OT Law is still valid) but have everlasting life. (NT) nice ...thanks




What’s fictitious about a last will and testament NOT being able to be changed after the testator is dead...

Yahushua demonstrated and taught what a new covenant age lifestyle should look like...and yet you would rather the traditions of man and jewish false witness...as if stephen and Paul taught He altered the very customs He lived...or made any of it NOT applicable to gentiles...IN HIM and according to HIS WAYS are now citizens of Israel adopted and grafted...



I thought you were wanting a serious discussion about this...LOL remember you saying that? Typical Pharisee...

So stop with the histrionics

Heb 4:9 uses “sabbatismos” NOT even a true Greek word...and is translated as a SABBATH KEEPING...

So there literally remains Sabbath keeping for His people...are you His people or not?



Oh? How about all those OT laws listed to do in order to be saved...or further lists in following epistles...you really think we can steal and murder etc or that the crowding gentiles were NOT expected to stop stealing or killin or lying but just FOUR things (already listed in the OT btw)

LOL

pretty much? What is left? Now add to that what you try to reject...

The covenants are different as they are signed by different signers and for a different purpose...not just salvation from Egypt or temporal powers but FROM SIN...yet faith and obedience found in the laws and by laws of the contract remain...and now we have Him to complete the PURPOSE of this contract...to get us to heaven and not just the hills of geographical Jerusalem...



oh yeah? So what laws are written in the hearts and minds of believers that are NOT demonstrated by Him when He asked we follow Him...and keep His commandments?

Feel free to make a two lists...those no longer for us and those that we are led into keeping by the Spirit...





yes you did repeat that jewish fable...in error



Now you are SPEEDING again...

The issue in acts 15 was that judaizers came from Judea and taught UNLESS goys were circumcised you cannot be saved...later Pharisees added these goys HAD to keep the law of Moses (not the 10 btw)


So into this Peter stepped with his testimony Yah chowing Him to preach to the goyim who then heard and believed and Yah even gave them the Holy Spirit...and MADE NO DISTINCTION BETWEEN US AND THEM purifying their hearts by faith...verse 9

No you must agree if these gentiles continued killing or adulterating or stealing a distinction would be made yes? How about if they ate swine and brought it to sabbath potluck? How about worshipping on Sunday?

I think Peter would agree that would distinguish something...right?

Now the unbearable yoke judiazers tested Yah with was a NEW TEACHING that goyim HAD to be circumcised TO BE SAVED...works first see? And NOT in the Old Covenant of their fathers...

So Peter and the gang settled on FOUR things goyim HAD to do NOT TO BE SAVED but just fellowship with them in their now newly crowded synagogues

(ALL FOUR ORDINANCES WERE ALREADY ESTABLISHED FOR THE GOYIM IN THE OLD TESTAMENT BTW...)

And two of these requirements prove that even the kosher laws still applied to them...or DO you argue that swine is made clean to eat as long as it is not strangled and all the blood is removed?

James concluded these 4 things were a good start for the crowding goyim...

Funny how goyim back then WANTED to crowd synagogues to hear Moses read EVERY SABBATH...we have come a long way since the ekklessia followed the Way...and His Way


oh good...

Yes Peter said rather we follow Yah than traditions of man...and kept kosher...

and Paul insisted we follow him as he followed Christ...keeping festivals...insisting goyim are law abiding citizens of Israel...adopted and grafted...He was following according to the Way which jews called a sect worshipping the God of his fathers believing all things which ARE written in the Law of Moses and in the Prophets...Acts 15:14 YUP even after the Cross

We are indeed to love JUST AS HE DID...His love is NOT as the world loves...He would NEVER invite you over after church for some Sunday Ham...

Yes obey the commandments of Yahushua...the ones taught and demonstrated in a covenant He signed and sealed...



why even love if the Law is abolished? Why fulfill something gone destroyed gone? Oh...cuz it ain’t...WE ESTABLISH IT by our love everywhere to everyone HalleluYah


ouch...you shur talk above yer learnin’

nope the veil is abolished I can read the still here OT even better thanks...



You really haven’t thought this through have you? Why would the lord of London destroy London? Or the lord of the rings his rings? They are what gives him authority and right...


oh my...all that to merely resort to snarky projection? How underwhelming...anticlimactic indeed...

How about we end this with...

“Here are they that keep the commandments of Yah and the faith OF Yahushua”

May the Spirit lead you to Him...His Way...

I am not going to argue with someone that thinks straw man arguments are valid responses. It isn't as if this is a single mistake, this pattern of fallacious reasoning permeates your entire writing. You aren't listening to what is said, you aren't responding to what is put forth, you are arguing against something else entirely.

As a reminder, a "straw man" argument is when you create an argument that you consider easy to attack and assign it to someone else for the purpose of knocking it down. Such as your claim "You are abolishing only one of the commandments." If I do not make the claim and specifically deny it, it is useless for you to attack. Whether this is a failing of your mental ability or desperation birthed by dishonesty it has the same end effect of it being impossible engage in rational conversation with you.

 

[john w]

Can it be that there is someone on this Forum that believes what the Bible is saying?

Add the above, to this deceiver's other bluster, deceit:

I am the only one on this Forum that preaches the Gospel and justification by faith.