Paul did not write Hebrews; we do not know who did

[Lon]

an Ethiopian? and Yes the twelve apostles are in the same Church I am in....along with many Jews and Gentiles who believe it started on that Day that Jesus told it would. He saved three thousand on that one day.

All Jewish minded, likely a good many had heard seen Jesus:
Act 2:5 And dwelling at Jerusalem there were Jews, devout men out of every nation under heaven.
Act 2:22 Men, Israelites, hear these words. Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by powerful works, and wonders and miracles, which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know,
Act 2:23 this One given to you by the before-determined counsel and foreknowledge of God, you have taken and by lawless hands, crucifying Him, you put Him to death

Believe it or not but it is biblical

Act 2:41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized. And the same day there were added about three thousand souls.

All Jews.

On point ekklésia was used prior to the first gentile congregation but Mid Acts (any Mid help and clarify) says the universal church hadn't happened yet until Acts 9 (some I believe Acts 13), hence Mid Acts. See here.

 

[Nick M]

I can't imagine that it wouldn't also apply to us, if it does to them in that way. Why would we be whole in the resurrection and they not?

Interestingly Martha knew, and Nicodemus did not. Ezekiel 37 describes their new bodies. After the resurrection, the eye witnesses said he had holes from the nails in his bodies. They saw it. Interesting point you have.

 

[Nick M]

I was asking in regard to what Mid Acts Dispensationalists believe, trying to grasp their history line.

You know better. We go with what the scripture says.

 

[Nick M]

If the covenant of circumcision is everlasting

Genesis 17 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you.

I am going to cheat and repost from someone who isn't here any more.

Also, the links are dead now.

Tom from Maybank

Paulos,



While there are many reasons for circumcision other than as a religious ritual, God gave a Covenant of Circumcision to Abraham. Circumcision (a synonym for law) is a huge key to unlocking the mysteries of Scripture. When a Jew was circumcised on the eighth day, he automaticall came under the Covenant of Circumcision or the law. Jesus was a Jew born into the House of Israel and was circmcised on the eighth day. He voluntarily put Himself under this covnant to fulfill it--something that we were not able to do. Fulfillment of the Covenant of Circumcision was keeping the law perfectly without sinning. Jesus made a contract with Abraham and then came around the other side of the table so to speak and fulfill Abraham's obligation. I wish I could get a car salesman to do that.

First, let’s examine law in Scripture. There were three tiers of the law: The first tier governed our relationship with God. “I am the Lord your God. You shall have no other gods before Me….” The second tier governed our relationship with each other. “Thou shall not steal, commit adultery, kidnap, et.al.” The third tier brings confusion to the average Bible student. This tier is symbolic law. The Jews received the symbolic laws. Symbolic law is neither moral nor immoral. Thus, any negative law could be overridden by a law that was a positive command. The command to not work on the Sabbath took a back seat to circumcise on the eighth day (if it fell on the Sabbath).

Symbolic laws simply pointed to Jesus Christ. The laws of clothing, diet, feasts, etc. pointed to Jesus. For example, a high priest could not be lame, for “in Jesus the lame walk.” The high priest could not be blind, for “in Jesus the blind see.” The Jews’ clothing had to be of one pure cloth, as Jesus is our pure covering. The Sabbath law was for Israel only, and was a perpetual covenant.

The first covenant that God made with Abraham was the Covenant of Grace: “[Abraham] believed in the Lord, and He [God] accounted it to him for righteousness” (Gen. 15:6). Paul used this centuries later as his argument for grace: “For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something of which to boast…. For what does the Scripture say” ‘Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness’” (Rom. 4:2-3). This covenant was the first covenant that God made with Abraham. NO WORK WAS REQUIRED BY ABRAHAM! In fact, God put Abraham to sleep.


The second covenant was the covenant of Circumcision (or works or the law). Years later, God insisted that Abraham circumcise himself. Why? Circumcision was a sign of the agreement between God and Abraham’s descendants who would become known as people of the Circumcision (Jews): “and you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me [God] and you [Abraham and your descendants]” (Gen. 17:11).

Circumcision, although symbolic, was not optional for the Jews. God almost killed Moses because he did not circumcise his son born to Midionite wife Zipporah: “And it came to pass on the way, at the encampment that the Lord met him [Moses] and sought to kill him. Then Zipporah [Moses wife] took a sharp stone and cut off the foreskin of her son and cast it at Moses’ feet, and said, ‘Surely you are a husband of blood to me!’ So He let him [Moses] go. Then she said, ‘You are a husband of blood!’ because of the circumcision” (Ex. 4:24-26)

Now having said all this, why this unusual circumcision ritual? Recall that these laws were symbolic, neither moral nor immoral, were for the Jews only, and pointed to Jesus. Circumcision is the cutting off of the flesh. Jesus Christ (God the Son) became flesh, and was cut off. God told Abraham: “He who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money must be circumcised, and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant” (Gen. 17:13). God had also said to Abraham, “in you all” nations will be blessed (Gen. 12:3), and in Abraham, because Jesus came from Abraham’s loins, and from David’s body (2 Sam. 7:12). Thus, the Covenant of Circumcision pointed to Jesus Christ, who “became flesh” (John 1:14) and then the “Messiah” was “cut off” (Dan. 9:26; Mat. 27:46, 50). The Jews, called the Circumcision, the people of the Covenant of Circumcision, were themselves cut off (Rom. 11:20, 22). So, too, Christ, the King of the Jews (Mat. 2:2; 27:11), became flesh and was cut off. Thus the circumcision of Jesus Christ according to the Law on the eighth day (Luke 2:21) foreshadowed the very purpose of His coming. Consider also that God used the Hebrew word silver when He said to Abraham, “he who is bought with your money [silver].” Then recall two things: that the High Priest bought Christ with “thirty pieces of silver” from Judas (Mat. 26:15); and also that Jesus was born a Jew. Thus, throughout all history, He was the One both “born in your house [Israel] and… bought with your silver.” Thus the Covenant of Circumcision uniquely pointed to Christ.

Also understand that for Israel, many symbolic laws such as circumcision, feasts, Sabbath law, are perpetual statutes for Israel. When Jesus comes back to Israel, Israel will be required to keep these symbolic laws during their Thousand Year Kingdom and in the New Heaven and the New Earth. For Israel, these laws are not optional.

I pray that this sheds some light on the subject.


God bless, Tom from Mabank, TX

 

[Nick M]

As for the resurrection into glorified bodies, here is Ezekiel 37, not the whole chapter.

5 Thus says the Lord God to these bones: “Surely I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live. 6 I will put sinews on you and bring flesh upon you, cover you with skin and put breath in you; and you shall live. Then you shall know that I am the Lord.” ’ ”

11 Then He said to me, “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They indeed say, ‘Our bones are dry, our hope is lost, and we ourselves are cut off!’ 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 Then you shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves. 14 I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the Lord, have spoken it and performed it,” says the Lord.’ ”

21 “Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again.

23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

24 “David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. 25 Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children’s children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever.

26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 28 The nations also will know that I, the Lord, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.” ’ ”

I believe verse 26 is the new heaven and the new earth. He will destroy the earth after the 1000 year reign and judgment. As we all know. And they shall have peace on earth.

As a side note, Hebrew scriptures and prophecy does not say they will die and go to heaven. Not anywhere. As you can see. They will be resurrected and placed in their land. It is only Paul to the gentiles that he said will go to heaven. Sounds good to me. But, I want to see the new earth and the new Jerusalem.

This of course is what Paul tells us.

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

 

[Derf]

Genesis 17 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you.

"Your descendants after you" sounds like when Abraham is dead. That could mean the rules change in the resurrection.

I am going to cheat and repost from someone who isn't here any more.

Also, the links are dead now.

Tom from Maybank

Thanks. Good reading!

 

[Derf]

As a side note, Hebrew scriptures and prophecy does not say they will die and go to heaven. Not anywhere. As you can see. They will be resurrected and placed in their land.

I think you're correct here.

It is only Paul to the gentiles that he said will go to heaven.

Can you show me the passage you're referring to? This is a subject I've been interested in lately. We appear to come with Jesus from heaven, but the timing is debated. If at His appearing we both rise to meet Him and come back with Him to the earth, then the only heaven we are in is the sky, I think, and only as He musters His troups for defeating His enemies and establishing His kingdom.

Sounds good to me. But, I want to see the new earth and the new Jerusalem.

Agreed. And if the Jews are promised the land of Israel, who lives in the rest of the world? Plus, if Jesus is reigning from New Jerusalem, wouldn't His body be with Him?

 

[Nick M]

who lives in the rest of the world?

Those that do not offend and do evil?

 

[Lon]

You know better. We go with what the scripture says.

No! I was serious! I've been called Mid Acts. If so, initiate (I'm not too concerned over labels). I'm trying to learn Nick, and thank you. In all sincerity. Be blessed (you are, it is a mindful reminder for me perhaps you and makes me thoughtful during the day). In Our Precious Christ, Lon

 

[Lon]

Genesis 17 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you.

I am going to cheat and repost from someone who isn't here any more.

Also, the links are dead now.

Tom from Maybank

First, let’s examine law in Scripture. There were three tiers of the law: The first tier governed our relationship with God. “I am the Lord your God. You shall have no other gods before Me….” The second tier governed our relationship with each other. “Thou shall not steal, commit adultery, kidnap, et.al.” The third tier brings confusion to the average Bible student. This tier is symbolic law. The Jews received the symbolic laws. Symbolic law is neither moral nor immoral. Thus, any negative law could be overridden by a law that was a positive command. The command to not work on the Sabbath took a back seat to circumcise on the eighth day (if it fell on the Sabbath).

This one indeed is confusing and maybe disagreement if only on example: Sabbath wasn't just for man. It was an echo of our relationship with God. We are made in His image and thus reflect in marriage, in work, in worship; part of the image and reflection of God. It was lost at the Fall and the law in whole: is a reflection of 'who we were designed to be in His image. While I do agree with tiers, Jesus said the second 'was like the first.' Btw, this is truly the kind of things I was looking for, and ty.

 

[Bladerunner]

All Jewish minded, likely a good many had heard seen Jesus:
Act 2:5 And dwelling at Jerusalem there were Jews, devout men out of every nation under heaven.
Act 2:22 Men, Israelites, hear these words. Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by powerful works, and wonders and miracles, which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know,
Act 2:23 this One given to you by the before-determined counsel and foreknowledge of God, you have taken and by lawless hands, crucifying Him, you put Him to death

Act 2:41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized. And the same day there were added about three thousand souls.

All Jews.

On point ekklésia was used prior to the first gentile congregation but Mid Acts (any Mid help and clarify) says the universal church hadn't happened yet until Acts 9 (some I believe Acts 13), hence Mid Acts. See here.

there are two main theologies in Christianity. The Doctrines of Election taught in the Bible or or Universalism....Not taught in the Bible.....that is it.......

 

[Lon]

there are two main theologies in Christianity. The Doctrines of Election taught in the Bible or or Universalism....Not taught in the Bible.....that is it.......

Yet still, entertain the Mid Acts position as you hold to 2nd Acts. It helps, even if eschewed. Its study is informative and profitable.

 

[Nick M]

This one indeed is confusing and maybe disagreement if only on example: Sabbath wasn't just for man.

Well, let's check scripture.

8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

That doesn't look ceremonial to me.

25 But He said to them, “Have you never read what David did when he was in need and hungry, he and those with him: 26 how he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the showbread, which is not lawful to eat except for the priests, and also gave some to those who were with him?”

27 And He said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. 28 Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath.”

This is ceremonial.

19 ‘The flesh that touches any unclean thing shall not be eaten. It shall be burned with fire. And as for the clean flesh, all who are clean may eat of it.

But that is off subject. Paul did not write Hebrews.

 

[Lon]

Well, let's check scripture.

8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

That doesn't look ceremonial to me.

25 But He said to them, “Have you never read what David did when he was in need and hungry, he and those with him: 26 how he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the showbread, which is not lawful to eat except for the priests, and also gave some to those who were with him?”

27 And He said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. 28 Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath.”

This is ceremonial.

19 ‘The flesh that touches any unclean thing shall not be eaten. It shall be burned with fire. And as for the clean flesh, all who are clean may eat of it.

I'll keep it in my thoughts...

But that is off subject. Paul did not write Hebrews.

The only weird thing is that it is indeed scripture. It is perhaps a desire to have Apostleship on its veracity. It is well written thus any who see it as a masterful book would go fairly quickly to Paul for its excellence, with the stamp of Apostleship. The other books, because they were related to Jesus. It obviously has the stamp of scripture and an important book.

 

[Derf]

Those that do not offend and do evil?

Where do they come from? Remember that the earth and the heavens are new, so it seems they would have to be somehow worthy of entering into the resurrection (i.e., the second death doesn't apply to them). Is it a third brand of "believers" (BOC, Jewish believers in Christ, and the folks who live on the new Earth outside of Israel)?

 

[Nick M]

Where do they come from?

I suppose it is time to pull out Revelation 20+ They must be able to reproduce.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

I love Ray Comfort street interviews, even though he grossly fails to rightly divide the word of truth. Because he preaches Christ crucified. But he never quotes scripture stating it. Anyway, he gets this wrong too. He is carrying on over Russia in Ezekiel 38. This is after the 1000 year reign.

Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. 12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel [idolater's name will not be there]: 13 three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.

16 The city is laid out as a square; its length is as great as its breadth. And he measured the city with the reed: twelve thousand furlongs. Its length, breadth, and height are equal. 17 Then he measured its wall: one hundred and forty-four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel. 18 The construction of its wall was of jasper; and the city was pure gold, like clear glass.

This is literal to me. Physical dimensions are not a figure of speech. So there has to be new people. And because people have their own will, some will rebel. According to what John saw.

12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” 14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

 

[Nick M]

It is perhaps a desire to have Apostleship on its veracity.

The context is a devout Jew, who has heard Pauls' gospel. Even if he heard it from Peter. The audience in Acts 15 seems likely candidates. And they are not named, so we do not know.

 

[Lon]

12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” 14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

Notice the verbs. Interesting thoughts.

 

[Bladerunner]

Yet still, entertain the Mid Acts position as you hold to 2nd Acts. It helps, even if eschewed. Its study is informative and profitable.

been there done that, no Thanks.
Have a great day. thanks for the conversation.

 

[Lon]

been there done that, no Thanks.
Have a great day. thanks for the conversation.

Yet your language has only hints of grasping that perspective?

For me? It is very simple to grasp the framework and it does help one isolate/separate ideas very well. I've been called Mid Acts, not sure if I am wholly at this point, but I do appreciate the perspective. Election tends to be Calvinistic, Universalism a very few in Christendom espouse. It'd be a different discussion well off this subject.

Are you 2nd Acts dispensationalism as most dispensationalists are?