Paul did not write Hebrews; we do not know who did

[Right Divider]

But Paul does say, "I pray to God that ye do no evil" 2nd Corinthians 13:7, plus Colossians chapter 3, so it's not like Paul isn't concerned with our objective behaviors, it's one of his themes to care about what we do.

What does that have to do with anything?

Salvation by grace through faith is without works in the body of Christ. Good works are a wonderful thing... they come AFTER we receive our salvation.

 

[Idolater]

What does that have to do with anything?

Salvation by grace through faith is without works in the body of Christ. Good works are a wonderful thing... they come AFTER we receive our salvation.

You'll forgive people then for being confused about good works for the Christian and how important they are. Right? Because Paul, who you all constantly remind us is our only Apostle, constantly reminds us over and over again, just like all the whole rest of the Bible, to watch what we do, to walk the talk, and not just believe in eternal security and forget about our flesh entirely. In fact in Colossians chapter 3 Paul tells us how to forget about our flesh, and it's to not sin!

 

[Right Divider]

You'll forgive people then for being confused about good works for the Christian and how important they are. Right? Because Paul, who you all constantly remind us is our only Apostle, constantly reminds us over and over again, just like all the whole rest of the Bible, to watch what we do, to walk the talk, and not just believe in eternal security and forget about our flesh entirely. In fact in Colossians chapter 3 Paul tells us how to forget about our flesh, and it's to not sin!

What does this have to do with the topic of this thread?

Please get on topic.

 

[Idolater]

What does this have to do with the topic of this thread?

Please get on topic.

It's all about Paul and whether he wrote Hebrews, and using evidence internal to the New Testament, and whether the undisputed Pauline letters corroborate the content of the book of Hebrews. Such as when Paul says he received, in 1st Corinthians chapter 11 and 15. He received. That's like Luke introducing his Gospel, he received, and the writer of Hebrews too received. It seems common.

 

[Right Divider]

It's all about Paul and whether he wrote Hebrews, and using evidence internal to the New Testament, and whether the undisputed Pauline letters corroborate the content of the book of Hebrews. Such as when Paul says he received, in 1st Corinthians chapter 11 and 15. He received. That's like Luke introducing his Gospel, he received, and the writer of Hebrews too received. It seems common.

I don't follow your "logic".

This verse alone refutes Pauline authorship:

Heb 2:3 (AKJV/PCE)​

(2:3) How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard [him]; ​

Paul did NOT get his gospel from "those that heard Jesus" during His earthly ministry to Israel.

Gal 1:11-12 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:11) But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. (1:12) For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. ​

Did you even read the opening post at all?

 

[Idolater]

I don't follow your "logic".

This verse alone refutes Pauline authorship:

Heb 2:3 (AKJV/PCE)​

(2:3) How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard [him]; ​

That is the claim, yes.

Paul did NOT get his gospel from "those that heard Jesus" during His earthly ministry to Israel.

Gal 1:11-12 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:11) But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. (1:12) For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. ​

Did you even read the opening post at all?

Absolutely, and I'm claiming the language does NOT seem all that different me.

How do you figure out whose READING of the Bible is correct? What's your test?

 

[Right Divider]

Absolutely, and I'm claiming the language does NOT seem all that different me.

So what?

How do you figure out whose READING of the Bible is correct? What's your test?

Again... stay on topic.

The fact of the matter is that we do not know who wrote the book. But we DO know that the doctrine in that book lines up with Christ's calling of Israel and does not line up with the dispensation of the grace of God in all of Paul's epistles.

 

[Idolater]

So what?

It ... addresses the OP, like you asked for.

Again... stay on topic.

The fact of the matter is that we do not know who wrote the book. But we DO know that the doctrine in that book lines up with Christ's calling of Israel and does not line up with the dispensation of the grace of God in all of Paul's epistles.

And that's just begging the question.

In contrast, I could say, I have no reason to reject Paul as the author of Hebrews, because Hebrews and all of Paul's undisputed letters lines up with Catholicism.

You see that's just begging the question.

 

[Nick M]

But Paul does say, "I pray to God that ye do no evil" 2nd Corinthians 13:7, plus Colossians chapter 3, so it's not like Paul isn't concerned with our objective behaviors, it's one of his themes to care about what we do.

No one says to change your behavior more than a "Paul person" or "dispensationalist".

 

[glorydaz]

What does that have to do with anything?

Salvation by grace through faith is without works in the body of Christ. Good works are a wonderful thing... they come AFTER we receive our salvation.

indeed, and the fruit of the Spirit produce the best works of all.

Gal. 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.​

 

[Nick M]

I have no reason to reject Paul as the author of Hebrews

Of course not. Because the author told you he only got it from others, and not from the Lord himself. And Paul received it directly from the risen Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Bladerunner]

Not the right thread, but help: Did the Jews have to accept grace, or did they yet have to keep the law as Christians? Basically clarification and a bit of the unfolding story and ty.

Lon...the Laws of Moses and the Prophets were ended with John the Baptist. The Church that Jesus Built did not start until Acts 2. Three thousand Jews were justified that first day......and so on....The first Gentiles true Christian was not until Acts 8

 

[glorydaz]

Lon...the Laws of Moses and the Prophets were ended with John the Baptist.

Matt. 5:

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.u​

The Church that Jesus Built did not start until Acts 2. Three thousand Jews were justified that first day......and so on....The first Gentiles true Christian was not until Acts 8

I know you’ll get some disagreement on this one, but maybe terminology will save you.

 

[Derf]

I don't follow your "logic".

This verse alone refutes Pauline authorship:

Heb 2:3 (AKJV/PCE)​

(2:3) How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard [him]; ​

Paul did NOT get his gospel from "those that heard Jesus" during His earthly ministry to Israel.

Gal 1:11-12 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:11) But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. (1:12) For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. ​

Did you even read the opening post at all?

I don’t see why Heb 2:3 eliminates Paul. The wording is about the salvation “which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord”, which can only mean during Jesus earthly ministry, and such was indeed confirmed “by them that heard” Jesus during his earthly ministry, which would be the 12. That Paul could say such in no way conflicts with his also receiving the gospel directly from Christ. You certainly can’t say Paul never compared notes with the other apostles.

 

[Nick M]

Matt. 5:
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.u

Here is more. Again from Matthew.

1Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.

23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

Observe and do. They are to keep strict ordinances. Nobody said it is easy. In fact, he said broad is the pathway to destruction. They have to do the will of the Father. That is even in John, not Matthew.

15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments.

21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

At the judgment, when Israel is to inherit their earthly kingdom, it will be a rude awakening. For those that strain a gnat and swallow camel, and those who believe and do not do the will of the Father.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’


37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’


41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

This is why Paul says saving by grace will drive Israel to Jealousy. The covenant of circumcision is hard. And it is ever lasting. And it will come back when the church departs.

 

[Derf]

Here is more. Again from Matthew.

1Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.

23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

Observe and do. They are to keep strict ordinances. Nobody said it is easy. In fact, he said broad is the pathway to destruction. They have to do the will of the Father. That is even in John, not Matthew.

15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments.

21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

At the judgment, when Israel is to inherit their earthly kingdom, it will be a rude awakening. For those that strain a gnat and swallow camel, and those who believe and do not do the will of the Father.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’


37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’


41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

This is why Paul says saving by grace will drive Israel to Jealousy. The covenant of circumcision is hard. And it is ever lasting. And it will come back when the church departs.

If the covenant of circumcision is everlasting, then our bodies won't be completely whole in the resurrection. Or at least their bodies won't be. That suggests that if one plucks out his eye rather than sin, and he enters into life lacking some body part, it won't be made whole.

Matthew 18:9 KJV — And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

I can't imagine that it wouldn't also apply to us, if it does to them in that way. Why would we be whole in the resurrection and they not?

 

[Lon]

Lon...the Laws of Moses and the Prophets were ended with John the Baptist. The Church that Jesus Built did not start until Acts 2. Three thousand Jews were justified that first day......and so on....The first Gentiles true Christian was not until Acts 8

Forgive my unclarity: I was asking in regard to what Mid Acts Dispensationalists believe, trying to grasp their history line. Appreciate and of course know the 2nd Acts position, but thank you just the same and again forgive the lack on my part.

 

[Right Divider]

Lon...the Laws of Moses and the Prophets were ended with John the Baptist. The Church that Jesus Built did not start until Acts 2. Three thousand Jews were justified that first day......and so on....The first Gentiles true Christian was not until Acts 8

• There was no "church" started on Pentecost.
  There was already a "church" that was added to.
  That "church" included the twelve apostles.
• Where do you find "gentiles" in Acts 8?
  The eunuch was likely a scattered Jew who had returned to Jerusalem for Pentecost.
  

 

[Bladerunner]

Matt. 5:

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.u​

Rem that Jesus was speaking to the Jews trying to get them to accept Him as Machiach Nagid. In Mat 11:13.."For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John."
Was after they had already rejected Him once with the killing of John the Baptist..It was against God(the father) for He was the one who brought John forward to introduce His Son to the world and Israel. The New Gospel spoken of the Bible for the times to come (the Everlasting Gospel, I believe will revive the Laws of Moses where works instead of faith (Church Period) will get one saved as in the OT.

I know you’ll get some disagreement on this one, but maybe terminology will save you.

 

[Bladerunner]

• There was no "church" started on Pentecost.
  There was already a "church" that was added to.
  That "church" included the twelve apostles.
• Where do you find "gentiles" in Acts 8?
  The eunuch was likely a scattered Jew who had returned to Jerusalem for Pentecost.

an Ethiopian? and Yes the twelve apostles are in the same Church I am in....along with many Jews and Gentiles who believe it started on that Day that Jesus told it would. He saved three thousand on that one day. Believe it or not but it is biblical