Paul did not write Hebrews; we do not know who did

Nick M

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We are not joint-heirs with Israel, we are joint-heirs with Christ.
I didn't say with Israel, only that Paul says we are now heirs. Even though were strangers to the covenants of promise.

5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
While this will not make you Mid Acts, it will help you grasp appreciatively the point(s) of difference. Most 2nd Acts reject Mid Acts outright. In my 2nd Acts seminary, we didn't even get to study them because they were 'way off base.'

So how did they do that? What was their primary argument?

Of course a 2nd Acts college would uphold 2nd Acts and eschew all contenders as is in keeping with the doctrinal statement and professors in good 2nd Acts standing.

Calvinist professors would do the same for Calvinism too ofc, your point being that this is not abnormal, which I agree is true.

I really wish they'd have at least spent a week on Mid Acts, however. Am I Mid Acts? Many would say so. Some might not, but I think I'm pretty close. <-- Good thread for your consideration concerning my theology.

Speaking of which, is it possible to set aside the question of early Hebrews appearing to say that the author of Hebrews (Who is regardless the Holy Spirit, Who has spoken through the prophets and so we presume also by the Apostles, and by those the Apostles recognized as writing Scripture, such as Luke and Mark and whoever the author of Hebrews was, if it wasn't Paul) was taught only by other men and not by God Himself, as we know Paul was? and then to consider if there's anything ELSE in Hebrews that we think can positively rule out Paul from writing Hebrews? I mean certainly he was an expert in the Law, there's no possibility that the content of Hebrews was above his head–iow the depth of thought and breadth of Scripture citation are both right in line with what we'd expect from something that Paul would write.

Certainly Church tradition hasn't preserved the author's name, for whatever reason. Seems it wasn't important enough to preserve and transmit by all the bishops. We don't have any reason to think that isn't the APOSTOLIC tradition though, meaning we don't know that the Apostles themselves, didn't fail to emphasize that we always remember who wrote Hebrews. Nobody thought to shore up that knowledge for posterity.

I think that's interesting in [and] of itself, but that's another thread.
 
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Lon

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So how did they do that? What was their primary argument?
I want to say 'heresy' thus we didn't get further than that.
Calvinist professors would do the same for Calvinism too ofc, your point being that this is not abnormal, which I agree is true.
Yes, I think a professor has to keep tenure. We had one professor who had a short-leash (wasn't 2nd Acts Disp any longer). He was my favorite professor.
Speaking of which, is it possible to set aside the question of early Hebrews appearing to say that the author of Hebrews (Who is regardless the Holy Spirit, Who has spoken through the prophets and so we presume also by the Apostles, and by those the Apostles recognized as writing Scripture, such as Luke and Mark and whoever the author of Hebrews was, if it wasn't Paul) was taught only by other men and not by God Himself, as we know Paul was? and then to consider if there's anything ELSE in Hebrews that we think can positively rule out Paul from writing Hebrews? I mean certainly he was an expert in the Law, there's no possibility that the content of Hebrews was above his head–iow the depth of thought and breadth of Scripture citation are both right in line with what we'd expect from something that Paul would write.
Yes.
Certainly Church tradition hasn't preserved the author's name, for whatever reason. Seems it wasn't important enough to preserve and transmit by all the bishops. We don't have any reason to think that isn't the APOSTOLIC tradition though, meaning we don't know that the Apostles themselves, didn't fail to emphasize that we always remember who wrote Hebrews. Nobody thought to shore up that knowledge for posterity.

I think that's interesting in [and] of itself, but that's another thread.
No, I think it is exactly this thread, and good post.
 

Nick M

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They (the Catholics) decorate their church better than any other I have been in. I have also never been in a LDS building. And they go all out for the Christmas concerts. And I love it.
 

Bladerunner

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Because those "Old Testament" saints looked forward to the Messiah saving Israel from herself.
trouble was that they rejected Jesus and still today reject Him as a nation. Yes, there are messianic individuals who truly believe in Jesus as in the beginning of the Church. They want the promises of land God gave them fulfilled.....
 
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Derf

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Just finished watching your video. Nothing new there. Except that I noticed he made a "difference" out of Jesus being Lord and Christ of Israel, versus Jesus being Lord and Christ of the Gentiles. After Cornelius, I just don't see how that difference was supposed to remain.
 

Bladerunner

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Just finished watching your video. Nothing new there. Except that I noticed he made a "difference" out of Jesus being Lord and Christ of Israel, versus Jesus being Lord and Christ of the Gentiles. After Cornelius, I just don't see how that difference was supposed to remain.
You cannot give it up! Well, you need to hear it again and again until you can understand it. What you think after happened after Cornelius was Israel lost all rights to the covenants the God gave them...and the Church-the Gentiles received it all in their stead.......Jesus is not going to appreciate those thoughts especially when He made it so clear as to what will happen in the near future. This video for the most parts was dead on target with what Jesus and Paul was teaching....
 

Derf

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You cannot give it up! Well, you need to hear it again and again until you can understand it. What you think after happened after Cornelius was Israel lost all rights to the covenants the God gave them...and the Church-the Gentiles received it all in their stead.......Jesus is not going to appreciate those thoughts especially when He made it so clear as to what will happen in the near future. This video for the most parts was dead on target with what Jesus and Paul was teaching....
How did the church-the Gentiles receive all in their stead? Are you saying the church owns the land of Israel?
 

Bladerunner

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How did the church-the Gentiles receive all in their stead? Are you saying the church owns the land of Israel?
I don't know, are you not the Ammillennallist who do not believe in the 1,000 millennium with Jesus Christ on earth, in person as king of all.
 

JudgeRightly

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Agree, as argument with repetition is also futile when presented to deaf ears,

You don't seem to have understood what I said.

An argument from repitition is where you repeatedly say something as though it will convince the one you are speaking to that it is true.

In other words, just because you say something repeatedly, doesn't magically make it true.

You can claim they have "deaf ears," and maybe that's true, or maybe you're just repeating something that is incorrect or false, and the person can see that it is so, and therefore refuses to accept what you say.

Which is why it's a fallacy to try to use repetition to convince someone of a position or belief.
 

Lon

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Excellent post on point:
Hebrews was definitely not written by Paul and the fact that most scholars agree otherwise is a terrific piece of evidence that he did not write it. "Scholars" make their career by disagreeing with the bible whenever the opportunity to do so presents itself. Biblical Archeologist in particular, it seems, have it as their life's goal to disprove some aspect of the bible, but they aren't unique, unfortunately. It seems the more educated the scholar, the more likely they are to get major issues wrong.

Be that as it may, the strongest argument against Pauline authorship of Hebrews relies on linguistic, stylistic, historical, and theological evidence drawn from multiple sources, including early church testimony, textual analysis, and yes, even scholarly research. I won't bore you with the entire argument, which is lengthy and will instead focus on the biblical elements of the argument, which is more than sufficient....



First, Paul explicitly identifies himself in all his known letters (e.g., “Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ…”), yet Hebrews lacks any personal attribution. In 2 Thessalonians 3:17, Paul states that he signs his letters with his own hand to verify authenticity. This is absent in Hebrews.

Second, Hebrews presents a high priestly Christology, focusing on Jesus as the Melchizedekian high priest, which is something Paul never develops in his letters. While Paul emphasizes justification by faith apart from works (e.g., Romans, Galatians), Hebrews leans heavily on endurance, obedience, and covenantal fidelity without explicitly discussing justification by faith alone in Pauline terms. The covenantal discussion in Hebrews is more aligned with Jewish liturgical thought, whereas Paul often frames his arguments in relation to Gentile inclusion and law vs. grace.

Third, Hebrews 2:3 states that the message of salvation “was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,” strongly implying the author was not an eyewitness of Christ’s ministry. Paul, however, consistently claims he received what he referred to as "my gospel" (Romans 2:16, Romans 16:25 & II Timothy 2:8) directly from Christ (Galatians 1:12) and does not rely on secondhand testimony.

Galatians 1:11 But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.​
Galatians 2:6 But from those who seemed to be something—whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God shows personal favoritism to no man—for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me.​
That last point is the real kicker here because if Galatians 1:12 weren't the case and Paul was teaching the same gospel that the Twelve were preaching then there would be no need for Paul's ministry at all. Jesus had just spent three years training His apostles and Judas' replacement had been confirmed not only by the eleven Apostles who remained as Jesus had given them authority to do (Matthew 16:19), but also by the Holy Spirit Himself in Acts 2:1-4.

The "Great Commission" given by Christ to the Twelve was an explicit instruction for them to take the gospel to "all nations" and yet they agreed with Paul to remain in Israel and minister to "the circumcision" (i.e. believing Jews) while Paul would go to the Gentiles.

Galatians 2:6 But from those who seemed to be something—whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God shows personal favoritism to no man—for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me. 7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.​

And notice also why the meeting that produced the above agreement, happened in the first place....

Galatians 2:2 Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and also took Titus with me. 2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles​

Why would Paul need to be sent by God Himself to Jerusalem in order to explain the gospel to the Twelve if what he was preaching was the same? There wouldn't be any need! It is precisely the fact that he was not preaching the same thing that justifies Paul's being an Apostle at all.

This Jerusalem counsel agreement also relates to the question of Hebrews’ authorship. If Paul wrote Hebrews, then his gospel would have been identical to what the Twelve were preaching, and this Jerusalem council meeting would have been unnecessary. On the other hand, if Paul’s message was distinct and someone wanted to argue that Hebrews reflects Paul’s gospel (which it clearly does not, as shown above), then the fact that it was written to the Hebrews would mean that Paul had violated his agreement with the Twelve. Paul would surely not have done such a thing. He was, after all, sent to this meeting by God Himself. Indeed, if he had violated this agreement by writing to the Hebrews, God would not have allowed it to be included in His Word. Either way you go, this point alone is sufficient to prove that Paul did not write Hebrews.
 
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