Paul did not write Hebrews; we do not know who did

[JudgeRightly]

Matthew 16:18 KJV — And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Surely Peter was involved in a church that was not yet built when Jesus said that. When was the new church built that Peter was a part of?

Jesus was speaking of Himself.

Peter is just a stone.

It was a play on words between petros (Peter's greek name) and petra (stony ground) and a reference to Psalm 62.

Strong's g4074 - Lexical: Πέτρος - Transliteration: Petros - Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine - Phonetic Spelling: pet'-ros - Definition: "a stone" or "a boulder", Peter, one of the twelve apostles. - Origin: Apparently a primary word; a (piece of) rock (larger than lithos); as a name, Petrus, an apostle. - Usage: Peter, rock. Compare Kephas. - Translated as (count): Peter (137), to Peter (10), of Peter (7), in Peter (1), than Peter (1).

Strong's g4073 - Lexical: πέτρα - Transliteration: petra - Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine - Phonetic Spelling: pet'-ra - Definition: a rock, ledge, cliff, cave, stony ground. - Origin: Feminine of the same as Petros; a (mass of) rock (literally or figuratively). - Usage: rock. - Translated as (count): rock (9), a rock (3), rocks (3).

He only is my rock and my salvation;
He is my defense;
I shall not be moved.
In God is my salvation and my glory;
The rock of my strength,
And my refuge, is in God.

Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 62:6-7 - New King James Version

He only is my rock and my salvation; He is my defense; I shall not be moved. In God is my salvation and my glory; The rock of my strength, And my refuge, is in God.

www.biblegateway.com

Strong's h6697 - Lexical: צוּר - Transliteration: tsur - Part of Speech: Noun Masculine - Phonetic Spelling: tsoor - Definition: rock, cliff. - Origin: Or tsur {tsoor}; from tsuwr; properly, a cliff (or sharp rock, as compressed); generally, a rock or boulder; figuratively, a refuge; also an edge (as precipitous). - Usage: edge, X (mighty) God (one), rock, X sharp, stone, X strength, X strong. See also Beyth Tsuwr. - Translated as (count): the rock (21), my Rock (7), rock (4), a rock (3), and the rock (3), of the rock (3), of the rocks (3), their Rock (3), and a rock (2), at the rock (2), flint (2), from the rock (2), my strength (2), the Rocks (2), to the rock (2), and among the stones (1), and from the rock (1), and Rock (1), and the rocks (1), In the rocks (1), into the rock (1), like our Rock (1), of my rock (1), on a rock (1), out of the rock (1), strength (1), strong (1), the edge (1), the Mighty one (1), the strength (1), upon a rock (1).

There are other references as well, all of them are "petra" and refer to God/Christ, not a man named Petros:

For I proclaim the name of the Lord:
Ascribe greatness to our God.
He is the Rock, His work is perfect;
For all His ways are justice,
A God of truth and without injustice;
Righteous and upright is He.

Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 32:3-4 - New King James Version

For I proclaim the name of the Lord: Ascribe greatness to our God. He is the Rock, His work is perfect; For all His ways are justice, A God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He.

www.biblegateway.com

You don't build on petros or ammos. You build on petra.

“Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 7:24-27 - New King James Version

Build on the Rock - “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. “But...

www.biblegateway.com

Paul tells us explicitly, that the rock is Christ

Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 10:1-5 - New King James Version

Old Testament Examples - Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of...

www.biblegateway.com

More here:

Bible Verses about Jesus Christ as Rock

1 Corinthians 10:1-4Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed throu

www.cgg.org

Even Peter himself said that Christ is the rock, the cornerstone:

Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,

“Behold, I lay in Zion
A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”​

Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,

“The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,”​

and

“A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense.”​

They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Peter 2:4-8 - New King James Version

The Chosen Stone and His Chosen People - Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ...

www.biblegateway.com

Jesus is the rock He built His church upon. Not the man named Peter.

Jesus is the cornerstone. Not Peter.

 

[Idolater]

Jesus was speaking of Himself.

Peter is just a stone.

It was a play on words between petros (Peter's greek name) and petra (stony ground) and a reference to Psalm 62.

Strong's g4074 - Lexical: Πέτρος - Transliteration: Petros - Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine - Phonetic Spelling: pet'-ros - Definition: "a stone" or "a boulder", Peter, one of the twelve apostles. - Origin: Apparently a primary word; a (piece of) rock (larger than lithos); as a name, Petrus, an apostle. - Usage: Peter, rock. Compare Kephas. - Translated as (count): Peter (137), to Peter (10), of Peter (7), in Peter (1), than Peter (1).

Strong's g4073 - Lexical: πέτρα - Transliteration: petra - Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine - Phonetic Spelling: pet'-ra - Definition: a rock, ledge, cliff, cave, stony ground. - Origin: Feminine of the same as Petros; a (mass of) rock (literally or figuratively). - Usage: rock. - Translated as (count): rock (9), a rock (3), rocks (3).

He only is my rock and my salvation;
He is my defense;
I shall not be moved.
In God is my salvation and my glory;
The rock of my strength,
And my refuge, is in God.

Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 62:6-7 - New King James Version

He only is my rock and my salvation; He is my defense; I shall not be moved. In God is my salvation and my glory; The rock of my strength, And my refuge, is in God.

www.biblegateway.com

Strong's h6697 - Lexical: צוּר - Transliteration: tsur - Part of Speech: Noun Masculine - Phonetic Spelling: tsoor - Definition: rock, cliff. - Origin: Or tsur {tsoor}; from tsuwr; properly, a cliff (or sharp rock, as compressed); generally, a rock or boulder; figuratively, a refuge; also an edge (as precipitous). - Usage: edge, X (mighty) God (one), rock, X sharp, stone, X strength, X strong. See also Beyth Tsuwr. - Translated as (count): the rock (21), my Rock (7), rock (4), a rock (3), and the rock (3), of the rock (3), of the rocks (3), their Rock (3), and a rock (2), at the rock (2), flint (2), from the rock (2), my strength (2), the Rocks (2), to the rock (2), and among the stones (1), and from the rock (1), and Rock (1), and the rocks (1), In the rocks (1), into the rock (1), like our Rock (1), of my rock (1), on a rock (1), out of the rock (1), strength (1), strong (1), the edge (1), the Mighty one (1), the strength (1), upon a rock (1).

There are other references as well, all of them are "petra" and refer to God/Christ, not a man named Petros:

For I proclaim the name of the Lord:
Ascribe greatness to our God.
He is the Rock, His work is perfect;
For all His ways are justice,
A God of truth and without injustice;
Righteous and upright is He.

Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 32:3-4 - New King James Version

For I proclaim the name of the Lord: Ascribe greatness to our God. He is the Rock, His work is perfect; For all His ways are justice, A God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He.

www.biblegateway.com

You don't build on petros or ammos. You build on petra.

“Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 7:24-27 - New King James Version

Build on the Rock - “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. “But...

www.biblegateway.com

Paul tells us explicitly, that the rock is Christ

Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 10:1-5 - New King James Version

Old Testament Examples - Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of...

www.biblegateway.com

More here:

Bible Verses about Jesus Christ as Rock

1 Corinthians 10:1-4Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed throu

www.cgg.org

Even Peter himself said that Christ is the rock, the cornerstone:

Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,

“Behold, I lay in Zion​

A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,​

And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”​

Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,

“The stone which the builders rejected​

Has become the chief cornerstone,”​

and

“A stone of stumbling​

And a rock of offense.”​

They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Peter 2:4-8 - New King James Version

The Chosen Stone and His Chosen People - Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ...

www.biblegateway.com

Jesus is the rock He built His church upon. Not the man named Peter.

Jesus is the cornerstone. Not Peter.

Quoting @Derf "Matthew 16:18 KJV — And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

And (this follows something else He just said) I say also (again, He's adding to something He's already told them) unto thee, That thou art Peter (so the "thee" is Peter, the man Simon (Simon is one of the names of the 12 patriarchs, was Peter a Simeonite?), and Jesus is changing his name to Peter right here in this verse), and (again He is adding to what He just said) upon this rock (obv you are right, there in the Greek are two different morphologies of the root Greek word for rock; one with the linguistic affix "OS", which is the masculine affix, which makes sense, because he's Peter, and his pronouns are 'he-him', and the point made here also is that Jesus and Peter were speaking Aramaic and not Greek, and Matthew was even recording his notes which would contribute to His Gospel account later on, in Aramaic, and even if Matthew did not record notes in Aramaic, but only wrote his Gospel account later on from the Holy Spirit invigorating his memory, he wrote in Aramaic, and even if Matthew was written originally in Greek, the actual, ontological conversation was in Aramaic, and in Aramaic, there is no morphological difference between the reason given by Evangelicals as to why in the Greek they are morphologically different, which is because words get different affixes depending on their pronouns, and in English 'rock' doesn't have for us an affix for pronouns, but in Greek it does, and in Aramaic it doesn't, which means that the actual ontological conversation was c. "You are the rock, and upon this rock") I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

 

[Nick M]

Matthew 16:18 KJV — And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

As he separates sheep from goats, the left and the right. It isn't a new church.

 

[Nick M]

I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

His church is Israel, not you. Or me. The church isn't built on Simon bar Jonah, but he sure does lead it. Paul confirms it. In the words of godrulz, I am going to check other versions and commentaries. Straight from "The Holy See".

 

[Nick M]

Why are there 2 words in both Greek and English? Why don't we call Simon bar Jonah "Rock" instead of "Peter"? I'll wait.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Quoting @Derf "Matthew 16:18 KJV — And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

And (this follows something else He just said) I say also (again, He's adding to something He's already told them) unto thee, That thou art Peter (so the "thee" is Peter, the man Simon (Simon is one of the names of the 12 patriarchs, was Peter a Simeonite?), and Jesus is changing his name to Peter right here in this verse), and (again He is adding to what He just said) upon this rock (obv you are right, there in the Greek are two different morphologies of the root Greek word for rock; one with the linguistic affix "OS", which is the masculine affix, which makes sense, because he's Peter, and his pronouns are 'he-him', and the point made here also is that Jesus and Peter were speaking Aramaic and not Greek, and Matthew was even recording his notes which would contribute to His Gospel account later on, in Aramaic, and even if Matthew did not record notes in Aramaic, but only wrote his Gospel account later on from the Holy Spirit invigorating his memory, he wrote in Aramaic, and even if Matthew was written originally in Greek, the actual, ontological conversation was in Aramaic, and in Aramaic, there is no morphological difference between the reason given by Evangelicals as to why in the Greek they are morphologically different, which is because words get different affixes depending on their pronouns, and in English 'rock' doesn't have for us an affix for pronouns, but in Greek it does, and in Aramaic it doesn't, which means that the actual ontological conversation was c. "You are the rock, and upon this rock") I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

I can barely read this run-on sentence, but basically, you're saying "because I can read my belief into this one verse, therefore it must be Peter who is the rock Jesus will build His church upon"....

.... Completely ignoring the fact that instead of eisegeting my beliefs into scripture, like you're doing here, I went and used other scripture to interpret this verse, showing that God, not a man, is called the rock and salvation in Hebrew (for Jesus is God); that Jesus said that someone who listens to His words is like someone who builds his house upon rock (the same petra Jesus used); that Paul stated plainly that the Rock in the Old Testament was Christ; and that Peter himself, who you claim is the one Jesus was going to build his church upon, said that JESUS was the chief cornerstone, (literally the most important stone in any building, for without it, the building would collapse), a petra laid in Zion.

So who's right?

You, who reads his beliefs into the text?

Or Peter, Paul, Jesus, and the rest of the Biblical authors?

You say "well, they were speaking in aramaic."

Irrelevant. The words used have certain meaning to them. You can't just change their meaning to suit your beliefs.

Oh! And one final point: if Peter truly was the one Jesus was referring to, when he said "the gates of hell will not prevail against the church founded upon it," then it wouldn't be very reliable, would it... Since just a few chapters later, Peter literally denied Christ...

That's not a very firm foundation, one that would allow the church to withstand the gates of hell...

No. JESUS is the rock that He built His church upon. Scripture affirms this throughout.

 

[7djengo7]

Oh! And one final point: if Peter truly was the one Jesus was referring to, when he said "the gates of hell will not prevail against the church founded upon it," then it wouldn't be very reliable, would it... Since just a few chapters later, Peter literally denied Christ...

Oh, that little lapse? No problem: we'll just say Peter must have been speaking "ex cathedra" when he denied Christ. Yeah. Nothing to see, there, y'know!

 

[Derf]

As he separates sheep from goats, the left and the right. It isn't a new church.

Wouldn't that be rather "rebuild my church"?

 

[Derf]

Quoting @Derf "Matthew 16:18 KJV — And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

And (this follows something else He just said) I say also (again, He's adding to something He's already told them) unto thee, That thou art Peter (so the "thee" is Peter, the man Simon (Simon is one of the names of the 12 patriarchs, was Peter a Simeonite?), and Jesus is changing his name to Peter right here in this verse), and (again He is adding to what He just said) upon this rock (obv you are right, there in the Greek are two different morphologies of the root Greek word for rock; one with the linguistic affix "OS", which is the masculine affix, which makes sense, because he's Peter, and his pronouns are 'he-him', and the point made here also is that Jesus and Peter were speaking Aramaic and not Greek, and Matthew was even recording his notes which would contribute to His Gospel account later on, in Aramaic, and even if Matthew did not record notes in Aramaic, but only wrote his Gospel account later on from the Holy Spirit invigorating his memory, he wrote in Aramaic, and even if Matthew was written originally in Greek, the actual, ontological conversation was in Aramaic, and in Aramaic, there is no morphological difference between the reason given by Evangelicals as to why in the Greek they are morphologically different, which is because words get different affixes depending on their pronouns, and in English 'rock' doesn't have for us an affix for pronouns, but in Greek it does, and in Aramaic it doesn't, which means that the actual ontological conversation was c. "You are the rock, and upon this rock") I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

You probably won't gain much traction namedropping me in this conversation.

 

[Nick M]

Wouldn't that be rather "rebuild my church"?

He said replenish the earth before anyone was on it. But directly, if he is adding to it, he is building it.

 

[Derf]

He said replenish the earth before anyone was on it. But directly, if he is adding to it, he is building it.

From Webster's 1828:
REPLEN'ISH, verb transitive [Latin re and plenus, full.]
1. To fill; to stock with numbers or abundance. The magazines are replenished with corn. The springs are replenished with water.
Multiply and replenish the earth. Genesis 1:28.
2. To finish; to complete. [Not in use.]
REPLEN'ISH, verb intransitive To recover former fullness.

Still, even if you used replenish correctly, and Moses used replenish incorrectly to mean "fill", that doesn't mean Jesus used "build" to mean "rebuild".

 

[Derf]

Jesus was speaking of Himself.

Peter is just a stone.

It was a play on words between petros (Peter's greek name) and petra (stony ground) and a reference to Psalm 62.

Strong's g4074 - Lexical: Πέτρος - Transliteration: Petros - Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine - Phonetic Spelling: pet'-ros - Definition: "a stone" or "a boulder", Peter, one of the twelve apostles. - Origin: Apparently a primary word; a (piece of) rock (larger than lithos); as a name, Petrus, an apostle. - Usage: Peter, rock. Compare Kephas. - Translated as (count): Peter (137), to Peter (10), of Peter (7), in Peter (1), than Peter (1).

Strong's g4073 - Lexical: πέτρα - Transliteration: petra - Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine - Phonetic Spelling: pet'-ra - Definition: a rock, ledge, cliff, cave, stony ground. - Origin: Feminine of the same as Petros; a (mass of) rock (literally or figuratively). - Usage: rock. - Translated as (count): rock (9), a rock (3), rocks (3).

He only is my rock and my salvation;
He is my defense;
I shall not be moved.
In God is my salvation and my glory;
The rock of my strength,
And my refuge, is in God.

Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 62:6-7 - New King James Version

He only is my rock and my salvation; He is my defense; I shall not be moved. In God is my salvation and my glory; The rock of my strength, And my refuge, is in God.

www.biblegateway.com

Strong's h6697 - Lexical: צוּר - Transliteration: tsur - Part of Speech: Noun Masculine - Phonetic Spelling: tsoor - Definition: rock, cliff. - Origin: Or tsur {tsoor}; from tsuwr; properly, a cliff (or sharp rock, as compressed); generally, a rock or boulder; figuratively, a refuge; also an edge (as precipitous). - Usage: edge, X (mighty) God (one), rock, X sharp, stone, X strength, X strong. See also Beyth Tsuwr. - Translated as (count): the rock (21), my Rock (7), rock (4), a rock (3), and the rock (3), of the rock (3), of the rocks (3), their Rock (3), and a rock (2), at the rock (2), flint (2), from the rock (2), my strength (2), the Rocks (2), to the rock (2), and among the stones (1), and from the rock (1), and Rock (1), and the rocks (1), In the rocks (1), into the rock (1), like our Rock (1), of my rock (1), on a rock (1), out of the rock (1), strength (1), strong (1), the edge (1), the Mighty one (1), the strength (1), upon a rock (1).

There are other references as well, all of them are "petra" and refer to God/Christ, not a man named Petros:

For I proclaim the name of the Lord:
Ascribe greatness to our God.
He is the Rock, His work is perfect;
For all His ways are justice,
A God of truth and without injustice;
Righteous and upright is He.

Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 32:3-4 - New King James Version

For I proclaim the name of the Lord: Ascribe greatness to our God. He is the Rock, His work is perfect; For all His ways are justice, A God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He.

www.biblegateway.com

You don't build on petros or ammos. You build on petra.

“Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 7:24-27 - New King James Version

Build on the Rock - “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. “But...

www.biblegateway.com

Paul tells us explicitly, that the rock is Christ

Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 10:1-5 - New King James Version

Old Testament Examples - Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of...

www.biblegateway.com

More here:

Bible Verses about Jesus Christ as Rock

1 Corinthians 10:1-4Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed throu

www.cgg.org

Even Peter himself said that Christ is the rock, the cornerstone:

Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,

“Behold, I lay in Zion​

A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,​

And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”​

Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,

“The stone which the builders rejected​

Has become the chief cornerstone,”​

and

“A stone of stumbling​

And a rock of offense.”​

They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Peter 2:4-8 - New King James Version

The Chosen Stone and His Chosen People - Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ...

www.biblegateway.com

Jesus is the rock He built His church upon. Not the man named Peter.

Jesus is the cornerstone. Not Peter.

I'm not sure what you are arguing against here, as I agree with all of that. My point was that Jesus was clearly talking about a future building project, and Peter was going to be involved. So what future church was Jesus talking about, where Peter would be involved, if the believing Jews were not part of the building project?

 

[Bladerunner]

Correct. It is not a new church or change in administration. It is following the script. The dispensation of grace given to Paul for us is the only place it happens in the "New Testament".

the Church and Jesus was not known in the OT....Yes in Acts 2

 

[Bladerunner]

This brilliant post was purged. The good stuff should stay.

Is that true, T?

Israel's Seven Feast Days

1. Passover (fulfilled)
2. Unleavened Bread (fulfilled)
3. First Fruits (fulfilled)
4. Pentecost (fulfilled)

5. Trumpets (future)
6. Day of Atonement (future)
7. Tabernacles (future)


The New Covenant is not in place until the Day of Atonement, the return of Jesus Christ, when Israel's sins are taken away, and they are gathered unto him.

***Yet the New Covenant for the Church had already passed by this time. For it is given at the time of Justification during the period of the Church which is now.


Romans 11
25: For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
26: And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

***If one reads carefully, Romans 9 through 11 is the “Past, Present and Future” of Israel as seen in Romans 11.

This is what Peter preached.

Acts 3
19: Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20: And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

***Rem here that Peter was still speaking only to the Jews and converted Gentiles...The church began with 3,000 Jews and Proselytes.

This is what Daniel prophesied.

Daniel 9
24: Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

*** This verse 24 above is an outline of for the events of the next three verses 25-27. At the time of Jesus, only “to make reconciliation for iniquity” has happened.

The Old Testament prophesied of Israel's fall, their scattering into every nation under heaven, and their regathering into the Kingdom with them as the head of the nations, a holy nation, a Kingdom of Priests.

***Some 1800+ prophecies line the pages of the Bible in both the OT and NT. 108 that were fulfilled in the days of Jesus Christ.

The mystery lies in the time of their scattering...it was unknown that God would raise up an apostle who would preach Grace to Jews and Gentiles equally...and, give them a heavenly inheritance!

Acts 7 is the fall of Israel.
Acts 9 is the first unprophesied event, the beginning of the Mystery and the revelation of the mysteries.

***Acts 7 is the fall of Stephen, Yes the last rejection of Israel to the Holy Spirit.

***The first being to GOD (the father), the beheading of John the Baptist and the 2nd to the ***Jesus Christ, the Son of GOD.

***Acts 9 is the purging of Paul himself and the bringing of the Gospel of Jesus Christ to both J Jew and Gentile in the following years.

This brilliant post was purged. The good stuff should stay.

***I concur that the good stuff should stay.

 

[Idolater]

***Acts 7 is the fall of Stephen, Yes the last rejection of Israel to the Holy Spirit.

***The first being to GOD (the father), the beheading of John the Baptist and the 2nd to the ***Jesus Christ, the Son of GOD.

***Acts 9 is the purging of Paul himself and the bringing of the Gospel of Jesus Christ to both J Jew and Gentile in the following years.

This brilliant post was purged. The good stuff should stay.

***I concur that the good stuff should stay.

Someone should just use Hugging Face and make a generative A.I. natural language model of the current database, then purge the stuff that's not good. You won't lose anything, it will all just be in the model now, it won't store all the posts, but it will store the model, and for TOL users like @oatmeal and @God's Truth and all the other non-Trinitarians, the model will store all of those users' posts with a very simple model. Whatever post you want to know from those TOL users, fits in a very slim model, because they were broken records. They always said the same wrong thing. There's no need to store all of that. Just maybe keep their posts when they're in important threads, but if they destroy a thread, then you might as well get rid of that thread. And they destroyed a lot of threads. Oh yeah @keypurr too. Destroyed threads. @meshak who else? There were lots of them, all trolls, they filled up the database here with broken records, just all the same stuff, stuck in a rut, what a mess.

Edit
You can't let the good stuff drown in the undertow of that wave, by accident. Hugging Face could provide a natural language processing generative A.I. model that could be used on the whole TOL database. The resultant A.I. model would be the compacted data of the entirety of TOL. Users mentioned above and others who became repetitive, would be compacted very much. In fact the model might be able to quantify how many resources are required to store each user's entire catalog of content. Users like those above and others who were broken records will take the least resources. The model will work much harder for someone like @Lon and AMR @AskMrReligion (I'm guessing on AMR's actual handle here) and @SaulToPaul who have nuance to their thinking. And ofc @john w the legend—that king.

 

[Right Divider]

the Church and Jesus was not known in the OT....Yes in Acts 2

There was no "church" started in Act 2, especially not the church which is His body (i.e., the body of Christ). The body of Christ started with Paul (around the Acts 9 time-frame).

Everything in Acts 1-8 is completely and totally Jewish (Israelite). It was all based on God's dealings with the nation of Israel and what their prophets said would come. That is why Peter quotes Joel.

Acts 2:14-21 (AKJV/PCE)​

(2:14) ¶ But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all [ye] that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: (2:15) For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is [but] the third hour of the day. (2:16) But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; (2:17) And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: (2:18) And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: (2:19) And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: (2:20) The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: (2:21) And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. ​

​

See the original:

Joel 2:28-32 (AKJV/PCE)​

(2:28) ¶ And it shall come to pass afterward, [that] I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: (2:29) And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. (2:30) And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. (2:31) The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. (2:32) And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.​

 

[Idolater]

... Peter quotes Joel.

... (2:21) And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. ​

​

Literally quoted by Paul, in Romans, to Gentiles.

 

[Right Divider]

Literally quoted by Paul, in Romans, to Gentiles.

Only a tiny portion about being saved.

Paul does NOT quote the prophecy for Israel. Peter did.

 

[Right Divider]

@Idolater

Notice the difference?

Rom 10:13 (AKJV/PCE)​

(10:13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.​

​

Acts 2:14-21 (AKJV/PCE)​

(2:14) ¶ But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all [ye] that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: (2:15) For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is [but] the third hour of the day. (2:16) But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; (2:17) And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: (2:18) And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: (2:19) And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: (2:20) The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: (2:21) And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. ​

 

[Idolater]

@Idolater

Notice the difference?

Rom 10:13 (AKJV/PCE)​

(10:13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.​

​

Acts 2:14-21 (AKJV/PCE)​

(2:14) ¶ But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all [ye] that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: (2:15) For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is [but] the third hour of the day. (2:16) But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; (2:17) And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: (2:18) And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: (2:19) And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: (2:20) The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: (2:21) And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. ​

What do you think, that Paul just cherry picks proof texts? Come on. Be consistent. If you quote an excerpt of a prophecy, aren't you necessarily implying the whole prophecy? You can't just pick and choose, and so Paul is not just picking and choosing either.

You're reading your own theology into this verse.