Madists

[Lazy afternoon]

Over your head again. What would I expect? I would expect for you and others who take issue with Matthew 15:24 KJV and Romans 15:8 KJV to drop it and take that sending and purpose at face value believing them. I would expect of those who have spent any time at all studying the Bible to recognize that the twelve apostles were commanded Matthew 10:5-6 KJV and after the second coming Matthew 28:19-20 KJV and that there is no way for Gentiles in this age to be saved apart from God sending an apostle of the Gentiles with a mystery gospel and doctrine to a mystery inheritance far above all heavens!

That is rubbish doctrine.

The gospel got to Rome before Paul got there, and those who heard and received the Holy Spirit from Acts 2 onward were scattered into all the nations with the Gospel, carrying the holy Spirit to them.

Paul grew up among the Christians of Antioch and other prophets also were there.

Peter was the first to preach the gospel of Christ to the gentiles--

Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

LA

 

[meshak]

Don't smile at me, devil.

Ok, thanks.

 

[clefty]

The marriage vows were given by Christ before the Law of Moses was given.

You have seen what I did to the Egyptians and how I bore you on eagles’ wings and brought you to Myself. Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine. (Exodus 19:4-5)​

"If you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant," this is obviously a different covenant than the Mosaic covenant. This is the covenant that Christ spoke to the people, not just Moses.

How do we know?

Then all the people answered together and said, “All that the Lord has spoken we will do.” (Exodus 19:8)​

For posterity's sake Christ wrote with his own hand the stipulations of the covenant and had Moses put the covenant in a gold-plated wooden box.

Christ saw the golden calf and did not approve and gave them additional instructions besides the covenant.

Paul explained, "What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions..." (Galatians 3:19)

Was the Law of Moses intended to be on-going?

"Till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made..." (Galatians 3:19)

Do we agree the Seed spoken of with regard to the Abrahamic covenant has come? Or should we look for another?

No no on that we agree...the Seed came...and of course the Law was until He came...

Just like when a teacher finally comes in to the classroom...because she was late the students relied on teaching tools and tutors to try and teach them 2 + 2 = 4...

Now when the teacher comes in does that change anything? Does she fulfill the law of addition in that problem? OF COURSE...but does she say "Ok children I figured it out and because you couldn't...so now don't worry about addition...I abolished it"

Now it's the same with you here...sin is the problem...carnal flesh...teaching tools point that out...tutors too...finally the teacher comes and well solves it and is willing to help us too...because well DONT think the law is abolished that points out sin...sin is not abolished...it's all around still...

You claim the old is abolished but I think you mean just 1 of the 10 surely you don't think we can steal murder commit adultery?

And certainly you don't claim the teacher came to teach 2 + 2 = 5...teacher maintains the law...said so Himself...I remain in His love keeping His commandments doing His will (NOT MINE)

Even the first full day of the new covenant age was a Sabbath He kept resting asleep in the tomb rising healed refreshed and ready for the next day of first fruits...

He even went to His Father as was what the Law of first fruits was...to present as our high priest...

If all that was abolished...why bother? Tell the followers who hurried to keep the Sabbath rather than bury Him proper...met for Pentecost...and other festivals including Sabbath...kept Kosher even...


But you would have Him change laws and principles to make 2 + 2 = 5

It remains "here are they that keep the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ"

Please note it is NOT "the 9/10 of the commandments of God" or "the commandments of God's Son"

 

[clefty]

How about the "work" of obeying the Lord Jesus? Does that "work" contribute to anyone's salvation in any way?

It takes work to test all things and hold on to what is good...it takes work to come to the decision to even believe you must decide...and have faith His grace is sufficient.

As for work following that acceptance, well of course it contributes to anyone's salvation in many ways...and not just our own...

For instance at work co workers tease me my vegetarianism yes? Joke about the raw vegetables and the trail mixes...

But because I am grateful for what was done I wish to keep my temple clean yes? And when they ask why I do this (even when they have parties they order special for me) I tell them that...

Well recently an older gentleman came by and asked again...so I went through it with him and admitted it ain't always easy or cheap...but his doctor is prescribing no meat for him out of medical necessity...

Now...he too realizes it is a choice...the heart must want it first...and facing death kinda influences the heart's choice ya dig?

But my work has led to his physical salvation...I pray it spills into his spiritual as well...but it is his work to choose Him...I just hope my teaching aids and tutoring and shadows and signs all point to the only One who can save him...it will have to be his choice...and that is work...I am willing to work with him on it...as mercifully He is too...waiting for us to open the door He knocks on...

And then I will tell him about the rest...and the seventh day rest...lol

It's exactly like living healthy...a choice we make ONCE but then choose over and over and over again...and work to focus discipline and recover when we fail...life long...but looking back we will never forget when we said "enough!...I want to live healthy or I will die"

He knocks on our door but it is our work to unlock it, to open it...clear a path to it...lol

And keep it open to Him...every day

 

[clefty]

The Jew-Gentile issue was settled several years ago. Catch up.

:deadhorse:

Several thousand years ago...before the church in the wilderness even...settled namely by "obey Him His ways"...

In the wilderness many goyim went along and already there it was settled...one law for both Israel and goyim...

You can read it specifically in the Sabbath commandment...(what's left of it after you abolish it that is)

Notice it was never one law for Jew and goyim...but Israel and those who wished to worship its God...

His house being a house of prayer for all people and all that...

 

[Crucible]

Faith, hope, and charity are the three graces of the Elect- works are inevitably part of that, and yet Madism attempts to justify a lack of works. And by extension, a lack of those graces.

It's a Christianity that simply falls short- they profess in praising the Lord and, well, that's about it. Otherwise, they just prance around asking people if they are saved and judging them. The worst example of a Christian you've ever seen, I can guarantee you, is a Rapturist Dispensationalist Bible thumper

 

[clefty]

Faith, hope, and charity are the three graces of the Elect- works are inevitably part of that, and yet Madism attempts to justify a lack of works. And by extension, a lack of those graces.

It's a Christianity that simply falls short- they profess in praising the Lord and, well, that's about it. Otherwise, they just prance around asking people if they are saved and judging them. The worst example of a Christian you've ever seen, I can guarantee you, is a Rapturist Dispensationalist Bible thumper

Is why it's best to keep the bible open...it's much harder to thump others with it open...

In fact avoid those with closed bibles...

 

[jamie]

You can read it specifically in the Sabbath commandment...(what's left of it after you abolish it that is)

OK, so you didn't read my post.

 

[clefty]

OK, so you didn't read my post.

I did...but nothing corrected this

"This is a different law than the Law of Moses that our Father abolished."

He didn't abolish it but you seem to think it is...

Love fulfills this law...why would it even matter if it was abolished?

How can why would Love fulfill something filled full and done away with?

Loving as He did is to keep His Father's commandments...now with Him it is a law of Liberty...

 

[God's Truth]

Wow you really do think Paul was calling the Law worthless...

The Galatians were Celts a proud pagan people with ancient customs traditions season rituals ceremonies etc...and before they knew God or rather were known by God they practiced these worthless principles...

God knows His own...He gave them His Law...the celts were not originally known by Him...

You obey 9/10 of the Law...He and His Father are ONE you divide their House with your two sets of rules...

Obeying Christ would be to pray to keep the sabbath in future times of trouble...DO AS HE DID which was KEEP HIS FATHER'S LAW and stay in HIS love...

Here are they that keep the commandments of GOD not His Son...we keep His testimony...

You are to ESTABLISH the Law HIS FATHER'S LAW...AS HE DID...



The OT Law actually required MORE FAITH as they believed in something NOT YET accomplished but merely promised...the new covenant is a DONE DEAL HE is the guarantee...SURETY...and He sent you a comforter to help keep it...

but you would think you obey Christ when He specifically asked you pray specifically for the Sabbath that it is kept...and modelled it for you...even in His death resting that first full day of the New Covenant Age as did His followers...

I can't believe you think Paul was calling HIS LAW worthless...but you really mean just 1 law not the other 9...

Wait yes I can...Satan has wished to supplant and counterfeit from the beginning...when Sabbath was established...

There is a new law that you seem to forget about.

You say 9 out of the 10...there are more than 9 things Jesus told us.

God find the new law in the new testament/new covenant.

The Galatians used to observe special days as their form of pagan worship, and they returned to those worthless things when they let Judazisers talk them into it again.

Since Jesus came, observing special days is not worthless.

 

[God's Truth]

Nope, that is the pope who wants people to worship on the sun's day instead of the Son's day.

I say nothing about worshiping on a Sunday. Pay attention when you want to be a teacher and correct others.

What is so hard for you to understand when I say worshiping days is now worthless?

 

[God's Truth]

Is that the law that implores people to love God and neighbor?

Love toward God requires that we put nothing ahead of God, not to venerate statues or pictures, not to abuse his name, and to honor his creation.

Saying parts of his creation are worthless dishonors him and you.

Christ is not hiring slackers to rest 24/7, he is hiring people to work for him 24/7.

An important aspect of working for him is to teach people that all things were created through him and for him.

Just believe what is written. The observance of special days is worthless; AND it does nothing in the way of loving your neighbor.

 

[God's Truth]

Tambora, what do you not get about GT not getting it?

Just because I do not believe your doctrines does not mean I do not get it.

 

[clefty]

There is a new law that you seem to forget about.

You say 9 out of the 10...there are more than 9 things Jesus told us.

God find the new law in the new testament/new covenant.

The Galatians used to observe special days as their form of pagan worship, and they returned to those worthless things when they let Judazisers talk them into it again.

Since Jesus came, observing special days is not worthless.

Lol...did you mean to say NOT or NOW...divine intervention of the fingers I imagine...

Don't resist...lol

Yes the Galatians did return to the worthless PAGAN things...but you call the OT things worthless

Paul doesn't...

His followers hurried to bury Him in order to keep a not worthless day...Sabbath...

He ascended to His father's to also keep a not worthless day...festival of first fruits...

Gentiles crowded into synagogues to hear Moses read to them...sabbath after sabbath...not worthless...

They met for Pentecost which became the "BDAY" of the church...not worthless...

Paul hurried to get to Jerusalem to celebrate festivals...not worthless...

Instructed believers to celebrate the festival "with the new unleavened bread of spirit and truth...NOT WORTHLESS...

Paul is specific that a sabbatismos a sabbath keeping remains for the people of God? Are you one of those? You seem to think it's worthless...

Isaiah makes clear in the new world new moons and Sabbaths are also not worthless but times we worship...


Again...pagan holidays are worthless is what Paul said...but nooooo you have to go and slander all of it with false witness that Jesus changed the custom of Moses...

He is Lord of the Sabbath...but now it's all worthless...

But to you...and others like you...but these days still point to Him AND WHEN HE DID THINGS...and well that is worth something to me...

 

[God's Truth]

I said that Abraham was never under the law and you ask, "Are you kidding?"

The old law was about getting circumcised. THAT IS WHAT Paul was speaking of that is the works Paul is speaking of. Paul is NOT speaking of not obeying by doing right and abstaining from evil.

Are you not aware that he was never under the law, including the things of the law in regard to ceremonial cleansing? Here is what you said earlier:

Are you not aware that PAUL IS SPEAKING of circumcision?

Let us look at this passage again:

"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Ro.4:1-5).

The words here which are in "bold" are quoted from Genesis 15:6. That event happened before Abraham was circumcised (Gen.17) so what Paul wrote at Romans 4:1-5 has nothing at all to do with circumcision. Paul says that if a person's justification before God is based on "works" then that justification cannot be described as being of "grace."

Paul was speaking about the BEFORE CIRCUMCISION!

To get circumcised or not has NOTHING to do with sinning. What has to do with sinning is to NOT OBEY GOD.

Paul is showing that the works of getting circumcised is not what matters anymore because Jesus circumcises us in the heart.

You just went over all that I took my time to post to you and you did not take the time to understand what I said. Go back and try to understand.

Those two things are mutually exclusive!

Your ideas about grace prove that you do not even understand the "gospel of grace" because you say that we cannot be justified or saved by grace unless we do the work of obeying the Lord Jesus. And since you do not understand that gospel you surely cannot believe it.

Obeying God is not cast out! God nailed circumcision to the cross and the other purification works. God did NOT cast out obeying Him and doing right and abstaining from evil! Lol!

It is only those who "believe God" who are justified in the eyes of the Lord:

You keep saying that because you were taught that without checking it out.

You ignore the scriptures that say that believing is DEAD and cannot save anyone if it is not with right action.

You think Paul is saying to believe and doing nothing is a secret key to getting saved. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Go look into it some more.

"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Ro.4:3).

Just read further down to scripture 9, 10, 11, and 12.

IT IS ABOUT BEFORE circumcision.

Abraham believed and obeyed!!! That is why Abraham got the promises from God.

Circumcision is the WORK THAT NO longer saves.

Circumcision is the seal of all the other CEREMONIAL/PURIFICATION WORKS.

You are deluding yourself if you actually think you are believing what the Lord says about being justified in His sight by "grace." It is only those who actually believe that gospel who are saved:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Ro.1:16).

Repent and believe the "gospel of grace." Cease from your ugly business of trying to convince others that no one can be saved apart from works.

You are going against God the Father Himself.
You are doing Satan's job by going against those who preach obedience to Christ.

 

[God's Truth]

The Romans were those who knew the law, were keeping it and boasting in it, proselytes, and graffed in before hearing Paul's gospel

Hahahaha and for that you got all those thanks?! You say they were Jew proselytes…and that they were grafted in BEFORE hearing Paul!!!!!!! Did you forget that all Jews who did not have faith, whether a proselyte or NOT were CUT OFF?! All those who did not have faith in Jesus were CUT OFF and bound to the same place as disobedient Gentiles.

ROMANS 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

[God's Truth]

I can hardly believe that heir said they were faithless proselytes who were GRAFTED in before hearing Paul but were NOT AMONG the CUT OFF JEWS.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The old law was about getting circumcised. THAT IS WHAT Paul was speaking of that is the works Paul is speaking of. Paul is NOT speaking of not obeying by doing right and abstaining from evil.

In this passage Paul quotes what is in "bold" and his quote refers to what is said at Genesis 15:6, which was before Abraham was circumcised:

"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Ro.4:1-5).​

Despite that you continue to insist that when Paul speaks of "works" in the above passage he is speaking of the work of circumcision:

Paul is showing that the works of getting circumcised is not what matters anymore because Jesus circumcises us in the heart.

You also said:

Obeying God is not cast out!

No one said that they were! Let us look at the following words of the Lord Jesus again:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."​

Therefore, John 5:24 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occurring in actual time."

So once a person believes he receives eternal life. Anything which happens to anyone after he believes cannot contribute in any way to that person's receiving eternal life. Therefore, obeying the Lord Jesus contributes nothing to a person being saved.

 

[God's Truth]

In this passage Paul quotes what is in "bold" and his quote refers to what is said at Genesis 15:6, which was before Abraham was circumcised:

"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Ro.4:1-5).

Despite that you continue to insist that when Paul speaks of "works" in the above passage he is speaking of the work of circumcision:

Circumcision CAME FROM ABRAHAM! That is the WORKS that NO longer save.

Circumcision is the sign of purification works!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Circumcision CAME FROM ABRAHAM! That is the WORKS that NO longer save.

The verse which Paul quoted about Abraham's justification comes from the OT at a time BEFORE Abraham was circumcized. You do know what the word "before" means, don't you?