Limiting the Death of Christ

beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Right Divider said:
Reconciled by His death... not saved by His death.



Just as John says that Christ's death was a propitiation for ALL, Paul says God was reconciling the WORLD to Himself by Christ's death.



And yet you cling to your fairy tale.
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So are you implying that a reconciled person to God, is lost, not saved ?
 
Nanja

Nanja

Well-known member
OZOS said:
Well, then, according to you, you believe in salvation by works.

However, the apostle Paul destroys your stupid theory.

"But to him that worketh not, BUT believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." Rom 4:5
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Incorrect ! Salvation is not of works, that's why an unsaved / unregenerate person cannot perform the Work [ergon] of believing in his mind and please God.


Rom. 8:7-8

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


However, all God's Elect in Christ Eph. 1:4-5, even while being His enemies and unbelievers, were even then declared Justified, reconciled to God Rom. 5:8-10 based solely on the Blood / Death of Christ on their behalf; and were already in a Justified state before God, even while being ungodly, an unbeliever, and at enmity against God.

Now their own Faith / Believing in time is given them as a fruit of New Birth Gal. 5:22, which bears evidence of them being Justified by the Blood of Christ;
He who is the Object of their Faith that Justifies the ungodly. Therefore, the Elect being Justified / reconciled to God, is based solely on Christ's Blood Work Rom. 5:9 on their behalf;

So to reiterate, the Elect being Justified / reconciled to God is based solely on Christ's Blood Work on their behalf. NOT on any act of faith / believing or action of the unregenerate on their part.
 
OZOS

OZOS

Well-known member
beloved57 said:
So are you implying that a reconciled person to God, is lost, not saved ?
Click to expand...

You are so confused and easily stumble over terms. For some reason (and I'm fairly certain, it because of the cult you are in), you read a word in the Bible and automatically assume it always has the same application. You just did it here.

Read these verses slowly...

"God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."

The words "reconciled", "reconciling", and "reconciliation" are all used in the above verses, and yet with very different applications. First of all, the apostle Paul tells us that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself. Jesus not only died (shed His blood) for the sins of those who believe, but also for those who do not believe. The whole world is reconciled unto God through the once for all sacrifice of Jesus. Yet, Paul concludes that not all believe that Christ has died for their sins, and has reconciled them to God. Paul implores those who have been reconciled, to be reconciled. Reconciliation is an accounting term. The debt was paid. God reconciled all men's debt from the wages of sin. Because men are too proud (you) to accept God's propitiation for the debt, they refuse to be reconciled. They want to earn their salvation by working for it. God has removed the debt, but the proud reject the free gift. They remain dead, separated from the life of God. The debt is paid, and they say "no" to it.

You want to take the term reconciled and claim that everyone for whom God died is saved, which is why you must redefine the terms "world" and "all", but you pervert the word of God for the words of a madman (Calvin).

You do the same with the word justified. You fail to understand that God justified all men to receive His life, and instead falsely claim that all who have been justified to receive His life, have His life. It is true that all those who are "in Christ" have been justified, but the term has more than one application, and you fail to understand the fullness of the Gospel.

As far as your blatant ignorance of God's word in Romans 4:5, it is apparent that you have no interest in the truth at all, because you clearly are twisting what Paul said, having been exposed for lying to all who would be foolish enough to read your childish perversions.

"But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness"

A believer is the antithesis of a worker. Paul just said so. A believer does not work. He believes. You claim that believers are workers, thus contradicting Paul, and, in fact, claiming that you are saved by works, unless you want to claim that you never have believed. Do you?
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
OZOS said:
You are so confused and easily stumble over terms. For some reason (and I'm fairly certain, it because of the cult you are in), you read a word in the Bible and automatically assume it always has the same application. You just did it here.

Read these verses slowly...

"God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."

The words "reconciled", "reconciling", and "reconciliation" are all used in the above verses, and yet with very different applications. First of all, the apostle Paul tells us that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself. Jesus not only died (shed His blood) for the sins of those who believe, but also for those who do not believe. The whole world is reconciled unto God through the once for all sacrifice of Jesus. Yet, Paul concludes that not all believe that Christ has died for their sins, and has reconciled them to God. Paul implores those who have been reconciled, to be reconciled. Reconciliation is an accounting term. The debt was paid. God reconciled all men's debt from the wages of sin. Because men are too proud (you) to accept God's propitiation for the debt, they refuse to be reconciled. They want to earn their salvation by working for it. God has removed the debt, but the proud reject the free gift. They remain dead, separated from the life of God. The debt is paid, and they say "no" to it.

You want to take the term reconciled and claim that everyone for whom God died is saved, which is why you must redefine the terms "world" and "all", but you pervert the word of God for the words of a madman (Calvin).

You do the same with the word justified. You fail to understand that God justified all men to receive His life, and instead falsely claim that all who have been justified to receive His life, have His life. It is true that all those who are "in Christ" have been justified, but the term has more than one application, and you fail to understand the fullness of the Gospel.

As far as your blatant ignorance of God's word in Romans 4:5, it is apparent that you have no interest in the truth at all, because you clearly are twisting what Paul said, having been exposed for lying to all who would be foolish enough to read your childish perversions.

"But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness"

A believer is the antithesis of a worker. Paul just said so. A believer does not work. He believes. You claim that believers are workers, thus contradicting Paul, and, in fact, claiming that you are saved by works, unless you want to claim that you never have believed. Do you?
Click to expand...

Look, Is a Reconciled Person Lost in their sins ?
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Nanja said:
Incorrect ! Salvation is not of works, that's why an unsaved / unregenerate person cannot perform the Work [ergon] of believing in his mind and please God.


Rom. 8:7-8

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


However, all God's Elect in Christ Eph. 1:4-5, even while being His enemies and unbelievers, were even then declared Justified, reconciled to God Rom. 5:8-10 based solely on the Blood / Death of Christ on their behalf; and were already in a Justified state before God, even while being ungodly, an unbeliever, and at enmity against God.

Now their own Faith / Believing in time is given them as a fruit of New Birth Gal. 5:22, which bears evidence of them being Justified by the Blood of Christ;
He who is the Object of their Faith that Justifies the ungodly. Therefore, the Elect being Justified / reconciled to God, is based solely on Christ's Blood Work Rom. 5:9 on their behalf;

So to reiterate, the Elect being Justified / reconciled to God is based solely on Christ's Blood Work on their behalf. NOT on any act of faith / believing or action of the unregenerate on their part.
Click to expand...

Very well stated Sister !
 
Right Divider

Right Divider

Body part
beloved57 said:
Is a reconciled person lost ? Yes or No
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God's Word says the He was "reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them".

2Co 5:19 KJV To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Click to expand...

Why is that hard for you to accept?
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
ozos

You fail to understand that God justified all men
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Thats a false statement first of all. Then on top of that what you imply is that a justified man is lost ! Thats blasphemy to the highest heavens ! And it disrespects Christs blood, which justified them He died for !
 
Bradley D

Bradley D

Well-known member
beloved57 said:
So you admit that Christs death doesn't in and of itself save anyone ? Yes or No
Click to expand...

Christ was the perfect and last sacrifice for all sins. How can anyone say His death does not save. The idea of the sacrfice was innocent blood being spilt for the sin. Animals were used for sacrifice, because animals do not sin ony human beings. Jesus being the Son of God without sin was the perfect and last sacrfice for all.
 
Nanja

Nanja

Well-known member
Bradley D said:
Christ was the perfect and last sacrifice for all sins. How can anyone say His death does not save. The idea of the sacrfice was innocent blood being spilt for the sin. Animals were used for sacrifice, because animals do not sin ony human beings. Jesus being the Son of God without sin was the perfect and last sacrfice for all.
Click to expand...


Was Christ also the perfect and last sacrifice for all the sins of these ?

Rev. 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
 
OZOS

OZOS

Well-known member
beloved57 said:
ozos



Thats a false statement first of all.
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It's quite clear, to every believer reading your posts, that everything the Bible says is a false statement to you. ALL men are justified by His blood.

"But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him." Rom 5:8-9

Paul just confirmed that Jesus died for sinners and ALL men are sinners. You obviously deny that ALL men are sinners, just like you deny that ALL men are condemned.

ALL men are justified by His blood. Men are eternally separated from God, solely because they reject Christ. They refuse the reconciliation. They refuse God's propitiation for their sins.

Jesus died for ALL sins, of ALL men. You deny this. You deny the Gospel that saves, thus rejecting His shed blood.



Then on top of that what you imply is that a justified man is lost!
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ALL men are justified to receive His life.Just as ALL men have been reconciled. Not "blasphemy", but truth, and like your father, the devil, you hate the truth.

ANYONE who denies that Jesus died for ALL sins of ALL men is preaching another gospel.
 
Bradley D

Bradley D

Well-known member
Nanja said:
Was Christ also the perfect and last sacrifice for all the sins of these ?

Rev. 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Click to expand...

If they would have repented. After one passes this life it is too late.
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Bradley D said:
Christ was the perfect and last sacrifice for all sins. How can anyone say His death does not save. The idea of the sacrfice was innocent blood being spilt for the sin. Animals were used for sacrifice, because animals do not sin ony human beings. Jesus being the Son of God without sin was the perfect and last sacrfice for all.
Click to expand...

Do you believe that people Christ died for shall not be saved? Yes or No?
 
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