way 2 go
Well-known member
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Rightly interpreting the parable......
Rightly interpreting the parable......
Well yes,...according to the illustration in this 'parable', the rich man is in 'Hades' (not 'hell' as traditionally defined or assumed). 'Hades' is the unseen realm of the dead, the grave, the underworld, etc. This may be a minor point, but the 'firey' torment of suffering is also figurative language describing the pain of regret, conscience, sorrow, anguish for his uncharitable attitude and self-centeredness. Remember, its a 'parable',...a story to illustrate a principle, idea, ideal or concept.
A soul or spirit will naturally suffer for their sins by the action of law itself, since any transgression of law(sin) produces consequences, and this includes all repurcussions of action under the law of karma. In the underworld (afterlife, realm of the dead) the rich man's conscience was reflecting back to itself its life of selfishness and luxury, while others suffered when he could have helped them.
Remember,....'Hades' is the term being used here (not a reference to a lake of fire and sulfer with sinners writhing in eternal torment, although later concept of 'hellfire' may be echoed back into the text). Its a 'story' (parable) encouraging one to do good works and service while they are on earth in the flesh, since all actions or non-actions have consequences which any conscious soul will experience in this life or the afterlife. I use the Sanskrit term 'karma' in its essential sense to mean 'action' and its accompanying effects, which will be harvested sooner or later.
Rightly interpreting the parable......
Well yes,...according to the illustration in this 'parable', the rich man is in 'Hades' (not 'hell' as traditionally defined or assumed). 'Hades' is the unseen realm of the dead, the grave, the underworld, etc. This may be a minor point, but the 'firey' torment of suffering is also figurative language describing the pain of regret, conscience, sorrow, anguish for his uncharitable attitude and self-centeredness. Remember, its a 'parable',...a story to illustrate a principle, idea, ideal or concept.
A soul or spirit will naturally suffer for their sins by the action of law itself, since any transgression of law(sin) produces consequences, and this includes all repurcussions of action under the law of karma. In the underworld (afterlife, realm of the dead) the rich man's conscience was reflecting back to itself its life of selfishness and luxury, while others suffered when he could have helped them.
Remember,....'Hades' is the term being used here (not a reference to a lake of fire and sulfer with sinners writhing in eternal torment, although later concept of 'hellfire' may be echoed back into the text). Its a 'story' (parable) encouraging one to do good works and service while they are on earth in the flesh, since all actions or non-actions have consequences which any conscious soul will experience in this life or the afterlife. I use the Sanskrit term 'karma' in its essential sense to mean 'action' and its accompanying effects, which will be harvested sooner or later.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Remember,....the terms are for an 'age', limited duration, not ECT
Remember,....the terms are for an 'age', limited duration, not ECT
Already addressed Matt. 25:46 here (see all links), and elsewhere. This is the only verse that has the compound 'everlasting punishment', but it must be understood in its original language context and not in a superimposed English construct, since this 'punishment' also refers to a 'lopping or cutting off' (as in pruning dead branches) and is for a particular 'age' (eon)..enduring for an 'age', not necessarily enduring forever. In other words as we've shown previously,...the concept of endless punishment being imputed upon a soul to maintain TORMENT or SUFFERING....TO NO END (get that?....to no end or effect)....is insane, nonsensical, illogical, unjust, non-productive, pointless.
This is why 'conditional immortality' which can be supported by scripture trumps ECT on the grounds we've covered, or Universalism which is another option also supported by scripture and some early church fathers. Each camp has their 'proof texts', so we must also evaluate these views on the grounds of intelligent reasoning, logic, philosophical soundness, moral integrity, conscience.
ECT has major problems.....
Remember,....the terms are for an 'age', limited duration, not ECT
Already addressed Matt. 25:46 here (see all links), and elsewhere. This is the only verse that has the compound 'everlasting punishment', but it must be understood in its original language context and not in a superimposed English construct, since this 'punishment' also refers to a 'lopping or cutting off' (as in pruning dead branches) and is for a particular 'age' (eon)..enduring for an 'age', not necessarily enduring forever. In other words as we've shown previously,...the concept of endless punishment being imputed upon a soul to maintain TORMENT or SUFFERING....TO NO END (get that?....to no end or effect)....is insane, nonsensical, illogical, unjust, non-productive, pointless.
This is why 'conditional immortality' which can be supported by scripture trumps ECT on the grounds we've covered, or Universalism which is another option also supported by scripture and some early church fathers. Each camp has their 'proof texts', so we must also evaluate these views on the grounds of intelligent reasoning, logic, philosophical soundness, moral integrity, conscience.
ECT has major problems.....
Yes it hurts
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
What about the victims of murder/rape?
What of those who perished under terrorism, war, barbarity?
9/11?
WWI/2/Vietnam etc etc?
What happens to those if they haven't believed TL?
:think:
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Lets get our 'terms' clarified......
Lets get our 'terms' clarified......
Say hello to the mirror. Some may see your 'theology' as a well cared for 'pet'....just as well.
Correct,...I'm not a cannibal. We've already been thru the symbolism of the flesh and blood of Jesus and the Eucharist in the UB thread here and elsewhere. I like anyone else imbibe my life from the Spirit-source of all life, which is 'God', if you want to use that term, and the emblems of the flesh and blood of Jesus are symbolic tokens of our reception of that life, as given thru the bestowal of Jesus.
Figurative language
Since I reject ECT and am still researching (a student of truth is ever open to continue learning), I disagree with your con-clusion with its traditional assumptions and presuppositions.
A verse often touted, but quoted out of context. We undergo one physical death in our lifetime as far as we know, but could undergo many physical deaths in many different bodies over the course of our spiritual journey thru time,....AND judgment day is everyday really, since you reap what you sow as long as there are actions of any kind, besides an assumed end-time judgment day before some heavenly tribunal. There may be both in their own times, but I say there are many 'judgments' along the course of one's existence at pivotal points along the way.
This is still traditional assumption and taking verses literal without critical thinking or proper exegesis (IMO), but even worse,....reveals a sadistic pleasure in delighting over the suffering of others. A simple accepting that those who wholly embrace iniquity and reject 'God' to the point of no return...will perish is more more reasonable then sentencing these souls to experience 'punishments' to no end. Note now,...this is sadistic punishment to no effect, purpose or end! its insanity. Even God supposedly grieves for the death of the wicked, but heaven forbid he is pleasured by their eternal torment.
One verse in an apocalyptic book that almost didn't make it into the NT canon, which is mostly 'symbolic' can be interpreted in many ways. Note that 'fire' or the 'fire of God' could have a destroying/incinerating effect, to effect a total 'disintegration' of souls, where they actually DIE (undergo the second death, and are no more, expunged from existence). ALSO,...the 'fire' of 'God' can have a purging/cleansing/purifying effect, where these souls are somehow 'saved' thru the fire, only having their impurities 'burned up' (consumed) while their souls are brought out purified and alive! This would be the triumph of God's will thru the totality of creation within Universalism.
*Sigh*.....the same ole tired proof texts....spouted out again and again.
All punishments, consequences, effects (call it what you want) have their 'time' of 'harvest' where the effects are realized, or endure until there is a true expiation of the sins committed. Once the full payment or effect is compensated and atoned for,....there is no more consequences for those sins, unless more sins are committed, of course. There is also a sin so severe or final that its consequence is 'eternal death', a final end or consequence of iniquity. In this view, some souls may undergo the 'second death' (soulical/spiritual death, disintegration of personhood). This is 'conditional immortality'.
Lets get our 'terms' clarified......
Say hello to the mirror. Some may see your 'theology' as a well cared for 'pet'....just as well.
Correct,...I'm not a cannibal. We've already been thru the symbolism of the flesh and blood of Jesus and the Eucharist in the UB thread here and elsewhere. I like anyone else imbibe my life from the Spirit-source of all life, which is 'God', if you want to use that term, and the emblems of the flesh and blood of Jesus are symbolic tokens of our reception of that life, as given thru the bestowal of Jesus.
Figurative language
Since I reject ECT and am still researching (a student of truth is ever open to continue learning), I disagree with your con-clusion with its traditional assumptions and presuppositions.
A verse often touted, but quoted out of context. We undergo one physical death in our lifetime as far as we know, but could undergo many physical deaths in many different bodies over the course of our spiritual journey thru time,....AND judgment day is everyday really, since you reap what you sow as long as there are actions of any kind, besides an assumed end-time judgment day before some heavenly tribunal. There may be both in their own times, but I say there are many 'judgments' along the course of one's existence at pivotal points along the way.
This is still traditional assumption and taking verses literal without critical thinking or proper exegesis (IMO), but even worse,....reveals a sadistic pleasure in delighting over the suffering of others. A simple accepting that those who wholly embrace iniquity and reject 'God' to the point of no return...will perish is more more reasonable then sentencing these souls to experience 'punishments' to no end. Note now,...this is sadistic punishment to no effect, purpose or end! its insanity. Even God supposedly grieves for the death of the wicked, but heaven forbid he is pleasured by their eternal torment.
One verse in an apocalyptic book that almost didn't make it into the NT canon, which is mostly 'symbolic' can be interpreted in many ways. Note that 'fire' or the 'fire of God' could have a destroying/incinerating effect, to effect a total 'disintegration' of souls, where they actually DIE (undergo the second death, and are no more, expunged from existence). ALSO,...the 'fire' of 'God' can have a purging/cleansing/purifying effect, where these souls are somehow 'saved' thru the fire, only having their impurities 'burned up' (consumed) while their souls are brought out purified and alive! This would be the triumph of God's will thru the totality of creation within Universalism.
*Sigh*.....the same ole tired proof texts....spouted out again and again.
All punishments, consequences, effects (call it what you want) have their 'time' of 'harvest' where the effects are realized, or endure until there is a true expiation of the sins committed. Once the full payment or effect is compensated and atoned for,....there is no more consequences for those sins, unless more sins are committed, of course. There is also a sin so severe or final that its consequence is 'eternal death', a final end or consequence of iniquity. In this view, some souls may undergo the 'second death' (soulical/spiritual death, disintegration of personhood). This is 'conditional immortality'.
Oblivion is what they already believe, some even long for it, but they will be resurrected and answer for their wickedness.
The doctrine of annihilism strengthens the hand of sin
Are they wicked? people do know if they are wicked. let everyone who is wicked know that punishment awaits them.
I TOTALLY trust God's judgement.
way 2 go
Well-known member
murder suicide on the rise
way 2 go
Well-known member
in context of Matt. 25:46 it does not mean "lopping or cutting off" :nono:
everlasting life and everlasting punishment
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.
so do you apply the same logic against everlasting life ?
have not shown anything but an inability
to read the word of God correctly
1 fact everyone's spirit continues on after physical death
2 Universalism is a bigger lie than no ECT
3 I have no problem texts , your side has plenty of problem texts
way 2 go
Well-known member
this story has a very real person named Lazarus in it
which makes true not just a parable
Luk 16:22 And it happened that the beggar died and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. The rich one also died and was buried.
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
the rich mans spirit is in fire
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame.
it is not about karma it is about sin
the rich mans spirit is in fire not his flesh.
good works good karma will not save you from the fire.
Rom 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Its an 'assumption' that the wicked already believe in oblivion or a concept of 'annihilation', so not sure why you're assuming this. We can only speculate what a wicked person believes about the afterlife.
Not at all, since the full harvest and effect of iniquity wholly embraced, is DEATH. How does the effect of sin, strenghten the hand of sin? :doh: Such is a lawful consequence of total rejection of God (Life), which is non-existence, death, disintegration, dissolution, termination of life. Remember,...the wicked are said to 'perish', not be eternally tortured to no end whatsoever. That's insanity.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
an 'age' indicates a 'period of time'.......
an 'age' indicates a 'period of time'.......
This passage and original words adressed and explained here. You super-imposing ECT into the text. Remember 'eon' indicates an indefinite period of time, an 'age', 'epoch', 'duration of time', which does not necessarily mean 'forever and ever' as assumed in 'english'. Remember, the NT was written in greek, NOT English.
Explained in the articles above,.....both 'punishment' and 'life' above are referred to as being 'age-during', meaning for an indefinite or extended period of time', or the word 'aion' may indicate the quality of the 'punishment' or 'life' as an adjective, depending on how its used in the sentence construct/context. The articles cover this, why stay ignorant?
Stop the Insanity
These are religious writings written by men for starters, besides what you later assume them to be. Besides, on grammatical, philosophical and moral grounds, there is no justification for ECT whatsoever.
In some sense all live on after physical death in the memory of the living, as well as some spirit-souls continuing on in some form in the 'spirit-world', which further undergo transformations or re-embodiments in their journey towards perfection, evolving along a path of eternal progression. As a spiritualist I do believe all souls continue on in consciousness, with possibilities of some periods of 'soul-sleep' until re-awakened to proceed further along their journey or purpose of existence. Research into this area is on-going.
I don't think so, since Universalism has just as much scriptural evidences as ECT, and is not as sadistic or insane.
Go Here for starters.....
Applying basic 'textual criticism' with your traditional interpretations on the passages we've covered shows some problems with assuming only your narrow pre-scribed translation of the passages, ignoring all other factors that condition an appropriate meaning of the verses in context.
an 'age' indicates a 'period of time'.......
This passage and original words adressed and explained here. You super-imposing ECT into the text. Remember 'eon' indicates an indefinite period of time, an 'age', 'epoch', 'duration of time', which does not necessarily mean 'forever and ever' as assumed in 'english'. Remember, the NT was written in greek, NOT English.
Explained in the articles above,.....both 'punishment' and 'life' above are referred to as being 'age-during', meaning for an indefinite or extended period of time', or the word 'aion' may indicate the quality of the 'punishment' or 'life' as an adjective, depending on how its used in the sentence construct/context. The articles cover this, why stay ignorant?
Stop the Insanity
These are religious writings written by men for starters, besides what you later assume them to be. Besides, on grammatical, philosophical and moral grounds, there is no justification for ECT whatsoever.
In some sense all live on after physical death in the memory of the living, as well as some spirit-souls continuing on in some form in the 'spirit-world', which further undergo transformations or re-embodiments in their journey towards perfection, evolving along a path of eternal progression. As a spiritualist I do believe all souls continue on in consciousness, with possibilities of some periods of 'soul-sleep' until re-awakened to proceed further along their journey or purpose of existence. Research into this area is on-going.
I don't think so, since Universalism has just as much scriptural evidences as ECT, and is not as sadistic or insane.
Go Here for starters.....
Applying basic 'textual criticism' with your traditional interpretations on the passages we've covered shows some problems with assuming only your narrow pre-scribed translation of the passages, ignoring all other factors that condition an appropriate meaning of the verses in context.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
You glanced right over my points, which still hold. 'Hades' is not your traditional embellished concept of 'hell', its the underworld, the grave, realm of the dead. This is a parable, a story meant to teach or illustrate something. It does not necessarily indicate ECT. Also note, your ignoring the universal law of karma which still holds wherever there is action of any kind, because all actions produce effects. 'Repenting' and doing right also reverses negative consequences naturally, so as long as one has freedom to change, there is hope of salvation.
Granted, there is no proof with assuming ECT that a soul cannot change its mind or repent in the Afterlife, for as long as a soul is able/capable of repenting, Love will accept its return, for such is Love's nature and will. You would deny that in favor of condemnation. There are many philosophical principles you're bypassing here for your strict adherence to a rigid belief-system and dogmatic interpretation of a few verses. I'd bet during your transition to the next world, you'll be in for a few surprises and learn to do more research before just assuming 'tradition'.
I disagree it's to no end...it is the due punishment for being wicked, I wholly agree with God. We have PROVED that death simply means separation from God....when Lazaruz died he did not cease to exist.
God will not annihilate them He will resurrect them, just as we shall be fitted with new bodies for eternal life so will they be fitted with bodies for eternal punishment.
Explain why you think wickedness should not be punished, why it should not be eternal as the bible says.
God will judge them with equity...that is with perfect fairness
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Straight up.............
Straight up.............
If you follow and research all my informed articles linked on this thread (see last few posts and pages and more), you will understand my view better, based on the grounds of that valid information illuminate a more appropriate interpretation of the passages concerned.
You can also understand my many writings against ECT or at least questioning it philosophically on many grounds in another thread here. So instead of merely repeating myself ad naseum, I ask that readers would at least honestly research my commentary and articles which directly address the issue at hand.
Again, it seems you haven't been reading my posts or studying the informed articles linked :idunno: I've said nowhere that the wicked should not be punished, since the law of karma holds that all actions have consequences,.....'what one sows, that also he shall reap', such is a universal law. I've already explained and responded to Way 2 go, the translation issues of Matt. 25:46. See previous posts and articles addressing this, then get back to me if you want a discussion. I invest enough time into this forum as it is, so all I ask is the dignity of one researching the commentary and resources linked. Study and see for yourself.
Furthermore,....ECT can be rejected on philosophical grounds alone, as utterly insane and wholly misrepresenting the justice/mercy or character of 'God', as LOVE would never impose an eternal sentence of unending torment (punishment/suffering) upon any conscious being TO NO END. - notice, its to no end! - Love will always correct, discipline, chastise to effect a reformation or restoration of its beloved, not sentence its beloved to endless torment from which is no relief or salvation. That would pure EVIL. There is no justification for this heinous belief which maligns the character of God among so many other violations. So if you don't have the time to research and really read my commentaries and all that is supplied via links to discuss the matter, that is your choice which has its own consequences.
Straight up.............
If you follow and research all my informed articles linked on this thread (see last few posts and pages and more), you will understand my view better, based on the grounds of that valid information illuminate a more appropriate interpretation of the passages concerned.
You can also understand my many writings against ECT or at least questioning it philosophically on many grounds in another thread here. So instead of merely repeating myself ad naseum, I ask that readers would at least honestly research my commentary and articles which directly address the issue at hand.
Again, it seems you haven't been reading my posts or studying the informed articles linked :idunno: I've said nowhere that the wicked should not be punished, since the law of karma holds that all actions have consequences,.....'what one sows, that also he shall reap', such is a universal law. I've already explained and responded to Way 2 go, the translation issues of Matt. 25:46. See previous posts and articles addressing this, then get back to me if you want a discussion. I invest enough time into this forum as it is, so all I ask is the dignity of one researching the commentary and resources linked. Study and see for yourself.
Furthermore,....ECT can be rejected on philosophical grounds alone, as utterly insane and wholly misrepresenting the justice/mercy or character of 'God', as LOVE would never impose an eternal sentence of unending torment (punishment/suffering) upon any conscious being TO NO END. - notice, its to no end! - Love will always correct, discipline, chastise to effect a reformation or restoration of its beloved, not sentence its beloved to endless torment from which is no relief or salvation. That would pure EVIL. There is no justification for this heinous belief which maligns the character of God among so many other violations. So if you don't have the time to research and really read my commentaries and all that is supplied via links to discuss the matter, that is your choice which has its own consequences.
God puffs at your flattery
He will never, never, never pardon unrepented sin.
He will never, never, never pardon unrepented sin.
way 2 go
Well-known member
no I didn't
I explained how do not believe your explanations
rich man's spirit is standing in fire you did not address
and Jesus explained for everybody what it looks like
...for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:26 And besides all this, there is a great chasm fixed between you and us; so that they desiring to pass from here to you cannot, nor can they pass over to us from there
mentions Lazarus by name, actual event. not addressed
it is about sin. not addressed
not in this life and if your faith is in karma then never
hope of salvation before you die
Rom 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
sorry by faith only. again not addressed
Heb_11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.