Justification of Eternal Punishment

[freelight]

God puffs at your flattery

He will never, never, never pardon unrepented sin.

Please review all my commentary above and attempt to understand the points shared.

I see no flattery here, and do the dignity in reading my work on this, or there can be no real dialogue here,...that is if your interested in dialogue.

Again,....I claim nowhere that sin has no results or is pardoned apart from repentance and reformation of one's ways. You're apparently not understanding my contributions here or attempting to research whats provided.

:idunno:

 

[Timotheos]

your thinking is wrong
can you explain how someone who no longer exists
can be punished ?

Someone who existed can certainly be punished by being destroyed. Then they no longer exist. Your thinking is wrong, or do you think that people who have been punished by lethal injection have not "really" been punished? Your thinking is upside down.

Matt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.

Exactly! Only the righteous go into everlasting life. The unrighteous do not go into everlasting life being tortured alive forever. Their eternal punishment is to be destroyed and remain destroyed for all eternity. Duh!

and for fun

explain what kind of death is spoken of here
Eph 2:1 And He has made you alive, who were once dead in trespasses and sins,

Instead of certain and final death, they are given eternal life. As the Bible CLEARLY says, the wages of sin is death. The Bible does NOT say that the wages of sin is eternal torture. Merry Christmas.

 

[Timotheos]

Maybe you can also explain why the Bible speaks of worms not dying and Fire not going out and smoke from torment ascending forever and ever?

If you would actually read the Bible where it talks about immortal fireproof worms you would see that the worms are eating the dead corpses of those who have perished. Those who have perished do not BECOME immortal fireproof worms. That would be silly.

And if you actually read the passage that talks about this fire, you would see that it doesn't say that the fire never goes out, it says that the fire is unquenchable. That means that it can't be PUT OUT. It will continue to burn the corpses of the wicked who have perished until they are completely gone. Then the fire can go out without being quenched. The fire is unquenchable.

Read Isaiah 66:24
"And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind." (NIV)

As you can see, this clearly describes someone who has perished. It doesn't describe someone who is alive and conscious and being tortured alive. This is far better proof that the wicked are destroyed than it is proof that the wicked are preserved undestroyed so that God can torture them alive forever with fire and immortal worms. Merry Christmas.

 

[Timotheos]

That makes no sense.

That's the problem with senseless doctrines like eternal torture. It leads to all kinds of senseless speculation. It is better to just accept what the Bible says, that the wicked will perish and they will be no more, but the righteous will go to eternal life.

 

[Timotheos]

Oblivion is what they already believe, some even long for it, but they will be resurrected and answer for their wickedness.

The doctrine of annihilism strengthens the hand of sin

That is not true, The true doctrine that the wicked will be destroyed does not strengthen the hand of sin, it destroys the ungodly just as the Bible clearly says. It is odd that you see complete destruction as a good thing. It isn't. Do you have such a low view of eternal life that you think losing it is nothing at all?

I'm sorry but you really need to think this through.
Have a Merry Christmas.

 

[Timotheos]

interpret = to give or provide the meaning of

yes they all interpret spiritually dead

Face the facts brother!

None of these say anything about being "spiritually dead". The only reason that you think they say "spiritually dead" is because you added the word "spiritually" before dead to the verse to fit your doctrine. If you didn't add your doctrine INTO the verse, the verse wouldn't support your doctrine. That is backwards. You might as well write your own Bible and make it say whatever the hell you want it to say.
Merry Christmas.

 

[chrysostom]

Maybe you can also explain why the Bible speaks of worms not dying and Fire not going out and smoke from torment ascending forever and ever?

maybe you can explain the second death

maybe you can explain the first one

maybe you should start there

 

[freelight]

no I didn't
I explained how do not believe your explanations


rich man's spirit is standing in fire you did not address


and Jesus explained for everybody what it looks like

...for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:26 And besides all this, there is a great chasm fixed between you and us; so that they desiring to pass from here to you cannot, nor can they pass over to us from there


mentions Lazarus by name, actual event. not addressed


it is about sin. not addressed



not in this life and if your faith is in karma then never

hope of salvation before you die


Rom 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,


sorry by faith only. again not addressed

Heb_11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

I addressed the essential issues here, amply. The main one is the false belief that 'God' will impose a sentence on sentient beings of eternal suffering and torment TO NO END....which is utterly insane. Love does not act in such a manner, neither does wisdom in the context of Love fulfilling its will, unless free will can determine a state of 'eternal suffering' somehow perpetually, or that one's iniquity ultimately produces the 'death' of that person, or that divine love ultimately triumphs within the soul, to effect a full return to 'God', ensuring salvation. - there is even more within these various possibilities that can be explored.

You cant limit 'God' to a narrowly prescribed, ignorant view of a few verses without educating yourself on the grammatical construct which can be interpreted in more ways than one, and in a better ways than ECT has assumed by tradition. Since you fail to educate or look at the facts of interpreting the verses in question, you have inadequate knowledge.

 

[freelight]

More to consider.........

More to consider.........

Death in scripture is separation from God....annihilationism is plain wrong

You need to do more research apparently, since 'annihilation' of the wicked is supported by scripture. Do you know what 'perish' or 'destruction' means? If you 'perish', or are 'destroyed',...what happens to you? If you want to be 'biblically correct', you will honestly admit like many others that 'annihilation' of the wicked is supported by scripture.

The wicked are not annihilated at the last judgement they go away into eternal punishment

see above. We've already addressed Matt. 25:46 and other issues regarding proper translation here.

Also, there is much more to learn from other religious schools and traditions, plus modern day knowledge of NDE's, soul-travel, consciousness studies, Afterlife research, etc.....to have a more comprehensive knowledge of the soul's existence beyond the grave.

 

[Zeke]

Annihilation of the wicked/sin would most likely be figurative pruning. Romans 7, is a good chapter to ponder what gets terminated/old man cut off, a inner parody of plucking out the Eye etc.......

 

[way 2 go]

maybe you can explain the second death

maybe you can explain the first one

maybe you should start there

there are 2 kinds of death

the destruction of the body
and
spiritual separation from God

 

[freelight]

Annihilation of the wicked/sin would most likely be figurative pruning. Romans 7, is a good chapter to ponder what gets terminated/old man cut off, a inner parody of plucking out the Eye etc.......

Yes, as I shared,...the word for 'punishment' implies a pruning/cutting/lopping off, as in pruning back dead branches to allow new growth to arise. See here.

Only one misinterpreted verse is being used to imply 'everlasting punishment' as it has been translated into English (in many translations, but not all), but this is a pruning or time of reaping of sin, that endures for an 'age', and pertains to a quality of an 'eon', but this word needs to be understood by its original meaning.

The whole concept of 'eternal punishment' is neurotic, insane and illogical, a figurative assumption with so much baggage. Beyond the law of karma, the higher governing hand of 'God' rules perfectly fair and just, equally merciful.

Many fail to consider what the essence and nature of Love really is.

 

[Aimiel]

If you would actually read the Bible where it talks about immortal fireproof worms you would see that the worms are eating the dead corpses of those who have perished. Those who have perished do not BECOME immortal fireproof worms.

If you would actually read the posts, no one has said that.

And if you actually read the passage that talks about this fire, you would see that it doesn't say that the fire never goes out, it says that the fire is unquenchable. That means that it can't be PUT OUT. It will continue to burn the corpses of the wicked who have perished until they are completely gone. Then the fire can go out without being quenched. The fire is unquenchable.

Scriptures say:

"The worms there never die, and the fire never stops burning"

Try to read several Scriptures before you post. You just might learn Truth.

 

[way 2 go]

Merry Christmas.

Merry Christmas to you as well

 

[Ben Masada]

God puffs at your flattery

He will never, never, never pardon unrepented sin.

But think Linnet, if we need to repent to have our sins forgiven, Jesus lost his life in vain. Now, Christians must decide to choose between repentance and the sacrifice of Jesus. That's called a paradox in the gospel of Paul. Could we say, a blunder?

 

[Ben Masada]

Luk 16:22 And it happened that the beggar died and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. The rich one also died and was buried.
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

the only way to interpret this is the rich man's spirit
was in hell

And, of course, you are aware that this was one of Jesus' parables and, the bottom line of any parable does not reside in the letter but in what the letter points to which, in the case of the parable of the Richman and Lazarus, the point in Jesus' mind was that the best way to escape hell-fire is by listening to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31.

 

[way 2 go]

And, of course, you are aware that this was one of Jesus' parables and, the bottom line of any parable does not reside in the letter but in what the letter points to which, in the case of the parable of the Richman and Lazarus, the point in Jesus' mind was that the best way to escape hell-fire is by listening to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31.

the story of Lazarus is a true

rich mans spirit is in fire

and yes Jesus preached keep the law

and Jesus raised up Paul when he cut off Israel ... sorry off topic

Merry Christmas Ben

 

[Aimiel]

But think Linnet, if we need to repent to have our sins forgiven, Jesus lost his life in vain. Now, Christians must decide to choose between repentance and the sacrifice of Jesus. That's called a paradox in the gospel of Paul. Could we say, a blunder?

If we repent it is one thing, but the ONLY way sin is forgiven is through Jesus' Blood. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. Without Jesus taking your place on the cross, you're still dead in your sins. God cannot abide sin in His Presence.

 

[freelight]

the story of Lazarus is a true

Its just a parable, this has been explained to you.

rich mans spirit is in fire

You fail to recognize figurative language, taking everything 'literal'. - hence the problems associated with that.

 

[way 2 go]

Its just a parable, this has been explained to you.

the story of Lazarus is a true and only story with person named

physical death and spiritual death

You fail to recognize figurative language, taking everything 'literal'. - hence the problems associated with that.

that is part of your problem taking everything you
disagree with and turning it to something more palatable
and pretending you have succeeded in making the
bible fit your anti-Christian belief system

you don't get everlasting punishment = pruning from
the text, you import that from your false belief system
to make it fit that system

Matt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.