Justification of Eternal Punishment

[way 2 go]

Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
your thinking is wrong
can you explain how someone who no longer exists
can be punished ?

Someone who existed can certainly be punished by being destroyed.

not the question

Then they no longer exist. Your thinking is wrong, or do you think that people who have been punished by lethal injection have not "really" been punished? Your thinking is upside down.

your thinking is wrong and you know it
if someone gave him the injection again after he is dead
would they still be punishing him ?

how do you punish someone who no longer exists ?

can you explain how someone who no longer exists
can be punished ?

Exactly! Only the righteous go into everlasting life. The unrighteous do not go into everlasting life being tortured alive forever. Their eternal punishment is to be destroyed and remain destroyed for all eternity. Duh!

as you would say, it does not say that

Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

eternal has no past tense
punished is past tense
punishment is the act of punishing

Instead of certain and final death, they are given eternal life. As the Bible CLEARLY says, the wages of sin is death. The Bible does NOT say that the wages of sin is eternal torture. Merry Christmas.

says eternal punishment

 

[Selaphiel]

all his ways are justice

That is declaration, not argument. Address the argument I made, I'm not interested in your declarative proof texting, it is meaningless.

Jesus is God
the outside factor is YOU

You do not follow the argument that I made. Creation is revelation of God, if creation ends in damnation that is revelatory of who God is. If one soul is damned eternally, it reveals 1 of 2 things:

1) God has the power but is not willing to redeem all things, hence he is not all loving or all good and thus not God.

2) God is willing but does not have the power to redeem all things, hence he is finite and thus not God.

God is perfectly good & God is not limited

Declaration. Address the argument, or have you retreated so far into fanatical fideism that you are unable to entertain rational arguments?

we have been given free will for love to be love it has to be
freely given

Declaration once again, a declaration that just ignores what I said instead of actually addressing it.

Would you say that a parent that let his or her child play on the highway, stick their hands in woodchipper or roast themselves in the fireplace out of respect for their freedom was a good and loving parent? No, obviously not. Such a parent would be a sadist or completely incompetent as a parent, yet you seem to hold God to a lower standard than a human parent.

lies

Simplistic proof text readings disconnected from any ecclesial tradition. The Bible is a meaningless and contradictory book if read in that way. How do you understand those passages? They cannot be read based on some imagined neutral way. They must be read in the light of the love revealed in Christ and in light of the purpose of judgment in the first place. Simplistic readings of the Bible thihnks judgment is about punishment for the sake of punishment, and ends up with a theology that no moral person should accept. Judgment is for the sake of restoration of fellowship, of community, of shalom. This is why St.Gregory understood the image of the fire as purgative fire. Hell is not some insane torture chamber set up apart from God. Hellfire is the love of God for evil, the all cleansing fire that redeems all things once the evil has been cleansed.

There is no such thing as pure evil (which would then result in annihilation if it met with the love of God). Evil is non-being, a privation of the good, evil is corruption of good and not a thing by itself (unless you postulate evil as substantive, then you are a Manichean, a gnostic dualist). Hence pure evil would be the same as pure non-being, which is the same as non-existence.

 

[Ben Masada]

gentiles are not a replacement for Israel

Rom 11:25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Jews have been brought down to equal with gentiles
so Paul preached to everbody

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

That's a classical promotion of Replacement Theology. No Jew, no Greek, no male, no female but all Christians. Paul was extremely cunning. How about no Christians, no Greek, no male, no female but all Jews? Obviously not! They all had to be from his own church.

 

[Timotheos]

not the question

your thinking is wrong and you know it
if someone gave him the injection again after he is dead
would they still be punishing him ?

how do you punish someone who no longer exists ?

can you explain how someone who no longer exists
can be punished ?


as you would say, it does not say that

Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

eternal has no past tense
punished is past tense
punishment is the act of punishing

says eternal punishment

You and I agree that there is eternal punishment. We now must determine what form that eternal punishment takes, okay?

Does God send the unrepentant to hell where they are tortured alive forever as punishment or does God punish the wicked eternally by destroying them? I think the evidence from the Bible is clear that the eternal punishment is destruction. The Bible says that the wicked will perish and the wicked will be no more. That sounds a lot more like destruction than eternal life in hell being tortured alive. The Bible even calls the Day of Judgment a day of "Destruction of the Ungodly". It is clear that the day of destruction of the ungodly is the day that the ungodly will be finally and permanently destroyed, or else why call it that??? The Bible is crystal clear that the penalty for sin is death and only those who are in Christ will receive eternal life. "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." and "That whosoever believes in Him shall not PERISH, but will have ETERNAL LIFE".

I hope you have a blessed new year, and I also hope that this year is the year you come to accept the truth of this.

 

[freelight]

Yes it hurts

Yes it does,....and such a concept as "eternal punishment" could not be implemented, enforced or sustained by LOVE. That is not Love's doing, neither Love's will.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Yes it does,....and such a concept as "eternal punishment" could not be implemented, enforced or sustained by LOVE. That is not Love's doing, neither Love's will.

You best not start preaching your Urantia garbage or I'll report you to Sherman.

 

[freelight]

You've got to be kidding......

You've got to be kidding......

You best not start preaching your Urantia garbage or I'll report you to Sherman.

Your threat is a pathetic attempt on your part to show the spite, fear and bigotry in your 'religious approach'....which holds little attraction to most people who value respect, tolerance of other views and decency. Its really quite sad. I'll participate on this and any other thread as I see fit, as a productive participant that is actually engaging in discussion on the subject, unlike your customary trolling and mocking comments done under the guise of humor which is really 'ridicule'. And if a moderator actually supports and 'enables' your behavior on this board, that is sad too, as they are basically justifying your 'behavior', approving of it (giving you a 'pass' because you happen to belong to the same religious club or belief-system...whoop-dee-doo). Your 'threat' is out of place here, totally. You're so obsessed with making the Urantia Book (UB) an 'enemy' that its driving you to nonsensical ends....even to 'policing' other threads. Now if you want to actually respond to my posts here on the subject, I have more here on ECT (eternal conscious torment), you can attempt to do so,...but the question is, do you really want to? You'd rather go on about the UB (who brought that up?), no matter what thread it is. Its insanity.

Finally, how does your 'threat' above answer or respond to my last post? Could you tell our readers? what is the relation? :idunno: Have you followed all my contributions here? Are you interested to, so you could actually discuss the vital issues involved in the subject-propositions? Have you a clue?

Read and review my commentary on ECT,.....then qualify yourself to understand my views and challenge/debate them point by point if you're interested in discussion/debate, otherwise, shut your pie hole. My point holds,.....if you would challenge my statements about LOVE and what Love's nature and will is. What is the nature of love? Do you know the infinity of love? Do you know what love's eternal will is? Does love inflict torment? Does love inflict endless pain? That's what my last post and many of my posts speak about, something you might want to contemplate. But you're obsessed with the Urantia Book, and your ignorant and misconstrued assumptions about it, which have been addressed here and elsewhere. Sorry to those following our discussion here, but this nonsense on his part needs to stop, and if he wants to tattle to Sherman, I can approach this issue to a higher authority, Knight himself.

 

[Scottune]

Its recently hit me as well that eternal torture is wrong. One good reason is we never signed up to be born on this planet. The gift of life is a great gift and I wouldnt want to seem unthankful to god for it but never being born would have been merciful if such a place existed. in fact as a christian for 35 yrs and a avid bible reader id have to say though I claimed belief in hell and even preached it at times I must have never belived it cause I had four children. I would have never reproduced if I really belived it.

 

[freelight]

The harm of false belief-systems......

The harm of false belief-systems......

Its recently hit me as well that eternal torture is wrong. One good reason is we never signed up to be born on this planet. The gift of life is a great gift and I wouldnt want to seem unthankful to god for it but never being born would have been merciful if such a place existed. in fact as a christian for 35 yrs and a avid bible reader id have to say though I claimed belief in hell and even preached it at times I must have never belived it cause I had four children. I would have never reproduced if I really belived it.

Thanks for confirming the cruel and ungracious doctrine of eternal conscious torment in hell which has probably made more people insane than any other. You may note that distorted 'theology' is quite an obsession in many psych wards which goes to show the great harm false religious teachings can do.

 

[Cross Reference]

Thanks for confirming the cruel and ungracious doctrine of eternal conscious torment in hell which has probably made more people insane than any other. You may note that distorted 'theology' is quite an obsession in many psych wards which goes to show the great harm false religious teachings can do.

We know God is love that we might envision Him residing out on the most extreme eternal Glorious Light of it as is humanly possible to imagine, ever wonder what might the extreme opposite direction might hold that is also eternal?

 

[Cross Reference]

Its recently hit me as well that eternal torture is wrong. One good reason is we never signed up to be born on this planet. The gift of life is a great gift and I wouldnt want to seem unthankful to god for it but never being born would have been merciful if such a place existed. in fact as a christian for 35 yrs and a avid bible reader id have to say though I claimed belief in hell and even preached it at times I must have never belived it cause I had four children. I would have never reproduced if I really belived it.

How selfish a comment from an obviously unlearned individual.

 

[Ben Masada]

Its recently hit me as well that eternal torture is wrong. One good reason is we never signed up to be born on this planet. The gift of life is a great gift and I wouldnt want to seem unthankful to god for it but never being born would have been merciful if such a place existed. in fact as a christian for 35 yrs and a avid bible reader id have to say though I claimed belief in hell and even preached it at times I must have never belived it cause I had four children. I would have never reproduced if I really belived it.

Scottune, I simply agree with you.

 

[Ben Masada]

gentiles are not a replacement for Israel

Yes, but Paul did not know that as he used them to promote his policy of Replacement Theology.

Rom 11:25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

That's Replacement Theology because, the Jews are assumed to been sheared off the tree so that the Gentiles be grafted into. The formula is not to replace an empty place left but to join according to Isaiah 56:1-8.

Jews have been brought down to equal with gentiles so Paul preached to everbody

Now, quote for us when did Paul go to the Gentiles to preach his gospel. All his life was among the Jews since Damascus and until Rome. (Acts 9:1,2 and 28:17)

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

I say almost the same from the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach: The final goal is neither this nor that but all one in Christ Israel. The point is that, from the meaning of "Christ" which is the Anointed One of the Lord aka the Messiah, "The Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His Anointed One." (Habakkuk 3:13) That's what Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel, the Son of God. (Exodus 4:22,23)"Israel is My Son..."

 

[freelight]

Speaking of 'eternal',......................

Speaking of 'eternal',......................

We know God is love that we might envision Him residing out on the most extreme eternal Glorious Light of it as is humanly possible to imagine, ever wonder what might the extreme opposite direction might hold that is also eternal?

Hi CR,

I've already been well over this concept of ECT here and in this very thread and elsewhere, so you can see why I reject such a belief and concept as imagined by some. It is incompatible with divine love and wisdom, not to mention the ultimacy of the divine will that ECT be promoted as God's Self-imposed justice, because it is not only pure cruelty but insanity, of which God's character and nature has nothing to do.

If you haven't read thru the thread listed in my link above, which is well over exhausted more or less, this thread is good as well, with much of my own contributions. We may note that if you're going to use the term 'eternal', only 'God' is eternal, infinite, everlasting, etc....so you cannot necessarily attribute a state of condition as such, unless it is of the endurance or quality of 'God', at which point you're assuming but a 'relative' projection of your own imagination. And still, INFINITE LOVE prevails, and maintains its eternal will and integrity. That Love does not change.

I've already covered the word 'aion' here amply, in case you wanted to go to the original greek,...'aion' pertains to an age, dispensation or indefinite period of time.

See 'Stop the Insanity' (a portal of posts on this very thread)

 

[freelight]

How selfish a comment from an obviously unlearned individual.

I find scottune's comment actual very 'unselfish', since he as an earthly father could never imagine condemning his children to eternal conscious torment in hellfire (to no end!). How much more could we imagine that Infinite LOVE itself would do such a thing to living beings, is unconscionable.

 

[Timotheos]

We know God is love that we might envision Him residing out on the most extreme eternal Glorious Light of it as is humanly possible to imagine, ever wonder what might the extreme opposite direction might hold that is also eternal?

Dualism believes that there is an entity equal to and opposite of God. This is a false doctrine. Only God is immortal, and whoever He gives the gift of immortality.

 

[Timotheos]

How selfish a comment from an obviously unlearned individual.

Your comments are selfish not his. The dogma that in effect says "I am going to heaven and to hell with everyone else" is inherently selfish.

 

[way 2 go]

Its recently hit me as well that eternal torture is wrong. One good reason is we never signed up to be born on this planet. The gift of life is a great gift and I wouldnt want to seem unthankful to god for it but never being born would have been merciful if such a place existed. in fact as a christian for 35 yrs and a avid bible reader id have to say though I claimed belief in hell and even preached it at times I must have never belived it cause I had four children. I would have never reproduced if I really belived it.

truth does not matter to you ?

Jesus believes in everlasting punishment

Mat 25:46**And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.



Jesus explained hell and he ended the explanation with unbelievers will continue to be unbelievers.

Luk 16:31**And he said to him, If they will not hear Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if one from the dead should rise.

:carryon:

 

[Timotheos]

truth does not matter to you ?

Jesus believes in everlasting punishment

Mat 25:46**And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.



Jesus explained hell and he ended the explanation with unbelievers will continue to be unbelievers.

Luk 16:31**And he said to him, If they will not hear Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if one from the dead should rise.

:carryon:

The truth matters. A person has to put John 3:16 on it's head to believe that Nobody ever perishes an everyone has eternal life either in heaven or hell, along with a lot of other passages.
Romans 6:23
2 These 1:9
Matthew 10:28
Jude 1:7
And too many more to list.

You have to explain away verses that clearly state that the wicked will be destroyed, ignore others completely, and cherry pick 3 verses and then explain away the difficulties in those as well.
The parable of Lazarus and Dives is obviously a parable, and even so it never once says the torment is eternal.
Eternal Destruction IS eternal punishment whether or not ECTists believe that.

What the Bible says is true, not the ECTist twist.
The truth matters, even when a person stubbornly refuses to see it.

 

[Cross Reference]

The parable of Lazarus and Dives is obviously a parable, and even so it never once says the torment is eternal.

What makes it obvious to you when Jesus gives names of those involved?? This is the only time He does so which makes it an account of what actually took place and NOT a parable.

The human soul CANNOT die. Therefore the words "death" or "perish" are to be taken as being eternally separated from God Who alone IS LIFE. "Death" and "Perish" will be cast into the lake of fire which CANNOT be extinguished. Look it up and read without putting you twist on it.

Read the rest of your Bible in the LIGHT.