Justification of Eternal Punishment

[Timotheos]

how much of this is news to you ?

there are 2 kinds of death

the destruction of the body
and
spiritual separation from God

Please give evidence from the Bible for the things you assert.

You are making unbiblical assumptions. Who told you that spiritual separation from God is another kind of death? What are their qualifications? Are they cult leaders? Why should I believe something with no proof from the Bible? What did they say to completely convince you that death is spiritual separation from God? Can you share what they said that was so convincing to you? Maybe I will be convinced by their mesmerization too, wouldn't that be nice? You and I would both be wrong, but at least we would agree.

 

[Timotheos]

The wages of sin is death. We all know and agree on this.

If death really is just "separation from God" then those who reject God and spit in His face will get away with it, with nothing more than a slap on wrist. Not even a slap on the wrist, they want to be separated from God, and according to the "death is separation from God" theory, they get to be separated from God. They win!

The plain fact is that the Bible never ever, not even one time, says that "death is spiritual separation from God". This is plain hogwash dreamed up by a cult leader.

 

[chrysostom]

The wages of sin is death. We all know and agree on this.

If death really is just "separation from God" then those who reject God and spit in His face will get away with it, with nothing more than a slap on wrist. Not even a slap on the wrist, they want to be separated from God, and according to the "death is separation from God" theory, they get to be separated from God. They win!

The plain fact is that the Bible never ever, not even one time, says that "death is spiritual separation from God". This is plain hogwash dreamed up by a cult leader.

amen

the only way to be separated from God is to be completely destroyed eternally

 

[way 2 go]

Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

 

[freelight]

Suggestion to really consider the matter on grounds of sanity....

Suggestion to really consider the matter on grounds of sanity....

~*~*~


And round in circles we go.....

Any can see our dialogues with Way 2 go (if you've been following this discussion), and see that we've laid out our propositions, arguments and reasons against the heinous and illogical doctrine of ECT, on textual-translation grounds, reason, logic and upon ethical/moral principles,....considering such philosophically. - since no judgment or action of 'God' will go contrary to reason or violate a man's conscience, its clear that ECT in the traditional 'hellfire and brimstone' view, holds no water (pardon the pun).

Way 2 go just spouts the same limited passage references and lexicons without a full and studied reference point in the greater context of things, loaded with so many assumptions, constrained to a very limited 'literal' interpretation of things, which fail when tested on many other levels appropriate to the real terms of 'justice' and 'mercy', by an all-loving and wise God.

'God' is not the arbiter of 'endless conscious torment' in a lake of fire (or anywhere for that matter), or any other form of INSANITY. Granted, the universal law of karma continues its 'effects' whether you believe in 'God' or not, but this is taking the subject to a greater context, which includes considering the matter on purely moral/philosophical grounds. Since souls reap what they sow, by way of law,....on another level, its more of having an insight in how law works in the universe, than how a personal 'God' is leveraging any balances or sitting on some cosmic throne keeping the fires of hell stoked to keep sinners in a state of torment with absolutely no reprieve or resolve whatsoever.

There are more ways to really look at this ECT concept than the narrow pages of a few religious books that people later have deemed 'holy' by mere tradition or assumption.

 

[Timotheos]

amen

the only way to be separated from God is to be completely destroyed eternally

Amen

 

[Timotheos]

Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

Yes, He did.

He didn't say that the dead are alive and will be tortured alive in hell forever. That's the part I disagree with you on.

I agree with Jesus, let the dead bury their dead.

 

[way 2 go]

Yes, He did.

He didn't say that the dead are alive

how are the dead going to bury anybody if they are not alive ?

Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

and will be tortured alive in hell forever. That's the part I disagree with you on.

Mat 25:46

I agree with Jesus, let the dead bury their dead.

Mat 8:22
the destruction of the body
and
spiritual separation from God
in one verse

 

[Timotheos]

how are the dead going to bury anybody if they are not alive ?

Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

You need to be spiritual in order to understand what Jesus was saying.

Mat 25:46

Thanks, this verse confirms what I am saying, that only one group gets eternal life, and the other doesn't. The other group goes to eternal punishment. This is also what I believe. I believe the punishment of destruction is eternal. There will never be a time when those who will be destroyed will recover from their destruction and become un-destroyed. Thank you for pointing out this verse which confirms the Biblical Doctrine of Conditional Immortality.

Mat 8:22
the destruction of the body
and
spiritual separation from God
in one verse

I'm sorry but Matthew 8:22 simply doesn't say "destruction of the body and spiritual separation from God".

I see that you like to read your doctrine INTO every verse you see. That's called "eisegesis" and it is not the proper way to read Scripture. Instead, you should get your doctrine OUT OF Scripture. This is called "exegesis".

Way2Go, you can argue against what the scriptures say all you want, but I will never agree with your false view. The truth is that the wages of sin is death, and whosoever believes in the Son of God will not perish but will have eternal life. God's Testimony is this: That whoever has the Son of God has eternal life and whoever rejects the Son of God does not have eternal life. See 1 John 5:9-12 for confirmation from God's Word of what I am telling you. I will continue to believe God's testimony no matter how long you argue against Him.

 

[way 2 go]

You need to be spiritual in order to understand what Jesus was saying.

buddhist

Thanks, this verse confirms what I am saying, that only one group gets eternal life, and the other doesn't. The other group goes to eternal punishment. This is also what I believe. I believe the punishment of destruction is eternal. There will never be a time when those who will be destroyed will recover from their destruction and become un-destroyed. Thank you for pointing out this verse which confirms the Biblical Doctrine of Conditional Immortality.

yes

the destruction of the body is permanent
and the
spiritual separation from God is forever .

I'm sorry but Matthew 8:22 simply doesn't say "destruction of the body and spiritual separation from God".

yes it does
Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

I see that you like to read your doctrine INTO every verse you see. That's called "eisegesis" and it is not the proper way to read Scripture. Instead, you should get your doctrine OUT OF Scripture. This is called "exegesis".

to forms of dead in
let the dead bury their dead.

one the destruction of the body
and
two spiritual separation from God

Way2Go, you can argue against what the scriptures say all you want, but I will never agree with your false view. The truth is that the wages of sin is death, and whosoever believes in the Son of God will not perish but will have eternal life. God's Testimony is this: That whoever has the Son of God has eternal life and whoever rejects the Son of God does not have eternal life. See 1 John 5:9-12 for confirmation from God's Word of what I am telling you. I will continue to believe God's testimony no matter how long you argue against Him.

Jesus and I agree
you and I not so much
everything you have said fits into
the destruction of the body
and
spiritual separation from God

 

[Timotheos]

buddhist

No, I'm not Buddhist. Are you Muslim? Just kidding. Although, now that I think of it, Muslims believe in eternal conscious torment in hell just as you do :think:

the destruction of the body is permanent
and the
spiritual separation from God is forever .

The Bible doesn't say anything about so called "spiritual separation" from God. The only thing that could separate a person from God is if the person were completely destroyed. God is omnipresent. The Bible even says "If I make my bed in Sheol, You are there".

Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.


to forms of dead in
let the dead bury their dead.

one the destruction of the body
and
two spiritual separation from God

Matthew 8:22 doesn't say there are two kinds of death, regular death and spiritual separation from God death. Matthew 8:22 says "And Jesus said to him, “Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead.”"

Jesus and I agree

You don't seem to agree with Jesus when He says that the Soul and Body will be destroyed, and the unrepentant will perish...

you and I not so much

You and I won't agree until you accept that what the Bible says is true and you stop reading your own doctrine into the Bible. That's okay, you and I can disagree, I also disagree with Muslims.

everything you have said fits into
the destruction of the body
and
spiritual separation from God

Yes, I'm sure that you read "spiritual separation" INTO everything I write the same way that you read spiritual separation into what the Apostles wrote. That puts me in very good company, right?

The Bible never once says "spiritual separation". Not even one time. Your doctrine doesn't come from the Bible, it comes from a false teacher. Who told you that the Bible says that the unrepentant experience spiritual separation?

 

[Aimiel]

The worms still don't die, the flames in the Lake of Fire don't go out and the ascension of the smoke of the torment never ceases.

 

[Ben Masada]

The wages of sin is death. We all know and agree on this.

If death really is just "separation from God" then those who reject God and spit in His face will get away with it, with nothing more than a slap on wrist. Not even a slap on the wrist, they want to be separated from God, and according to the "death is separation from God" theory, they get to be separated from God. They win!

The plain fact is that the Bible never ever, not even one time, says that "death is spiritual separation from God". This is plain hogwash dreamed up by a cult leader.

I neither know nor agree that the wages of sin is death. Millions of babies die throughout the world without having ever committed a single sin. Therefore, death cannot be the wages of sin. Death is only natural to every one who has been born. Just the third stage of man's life as in birth, life and death.

 

[Ben Masada]

The worms still don't die, the flames in the Lake of Fire don't go out and the ascension of the smoke of the torment never ceases.

You are simply being too tragic with this false doctrine of yours. It has absolutely nothing to do with sheol aka the grave.

 

[rstrats]

Aimiel,
re: "The worms still don't die..."

Are these physical worms or spirit worms? And what do you suppose they did to justify having to spend eternity in the flames of the lake of fire?

 

[freelight]

sayings..........

sayings..........

Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

This verse doesn't really address or explain anything related to 'eternal punishment' or the subject at hand, for its a metaphorical saying, that's all. Note the context here is about a disciple leaving burial concerns alone, while attending to matters of the kingdom first. In other words...."let the dead take care of their own",....or "leave the dead alone, for they are taken care of in their own realm". - "but you be about the business of the kingdom". - those who die go to Sheol/Hades (the grave), and/or continue their existence/journey of life in the spirit-world. There is nothing more to read into this saying, outside of the context.

 

[freelight]

not quite......

not quite......

how are the dead going to bury anybody if they are not alive ?

Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

Addressed previously. If you interpret like you are supposing, it turns rather ridiculous,...since how can the conscious dead BURY another dead person? :doh: - do they use spiritual shovels and bury them in a spiritual grave? its just nonsense. Again, this is a 'metaphor' or 'allegorical saying'.

Mat 25:46

Already addressed in many previous posts here.

Mat 8:22
the destruction of the body
and
spiritual separation from God
in one verse

Again, that verse says nothing specific to a 'spiritual separation from God' - NOTHING. -that's what you're reading into the text.

 

[freelight]

The worms still don't die, the flames in the Lake of Fire don't go out and the ascension of the smoke of the torment never ceases.

Figurative, symbolic language. The problem is you're taking everything 'literal'.

 

[way 2 go]

Originally Posted by Timotheos View Post
You need to be spiritual in order to understand what Jesus was saying.

No, I'm not Buddhist. Are you Muslim? Just kidding. Although, now that I think of it, Muslims believe in eternal conscious torment in hell just as you do :think:

so something more than a new ager

The Bible doesn't say anything about so called "spiritual separation" from God. The only thing that could separate a person from God is if the person were completely destroyed. God is omnipresent.

Jud 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
Jud 1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

The Bible even says "If I make my bed in Sheol, You are there".

David had the spirit of God so it makes sense God would be
where David was at anytime.

Matthew 8:22 doesn't say there are two kinds of death, regular death and spiritual separation from God death. Matthew 8:22 says "And Jesus said to him, “Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead.”"

to forms of dead in
let the dead bury their dead.

one the destruction of the body
and
two spiritual separation from God

You don't seem to agree with Jesus when He says that the Soul and Body will be destroyed, and the unrepentant will perish...

Jesus and I agree
the destruction of the body is permanent
and the
spiritual separation from God will be forever .

You and I won't agree until you accept that what the Bible says is true and you stop reading your own doctrine into the Bible. That's okay, you and I can disagree, I also disagree with Muslims.

you agree with atheists

I believe muslims are going to hell ECT

Yes, I'm sure that you read "spiritual separation" INTO everything I write the same way that you read spiritual separation into what the Apostles wrote. That puts me in very good company, right?

as long as you keep getting the 2 definitions of death wrong
you can hold on to to your belief of no ECT

Joh 6:63 It is the Spirit that gives life. The body is of no value for that. But the things I have told you are from the Spirit, so they give life.

spiritually dead people can be given life to their spirit

The Bible never once says "spiritual separation". Not even one time. Your doctrine doesn't come from the Bible, it comes from a false teacher. Who told you that the Bible says that the unrepentant experience spiritual separation?

Jud 1:18 They told you, "In the last times there will be people who laugh at God and do only what they want to do--things that are against God."
Jud 1:19 These are the people who divide you. They are not spiritual, because they don't have the Spirit.

 

[way 2 go]

This verse doesn't really address or explain anything related to 'eternal punishment' or the subject at hand, for its a metaphorical saying, that's all. Note the context here is about a disciple leaving burial concerns alone, while attending to matters of the kingdom first. In other words...."let the dead take care of their own",....or "leave the dead alone, for they are taken care of in their own realm". - "but you be about the business of the kingdom". - those who die go to Sheol/Hades (the grave), and/or continue their existence/journey of life in the spirit-world. There is nothing more to read into this saying, outside of the context.

to forms of dead in
let the dead bury their dead.

one the destruction of the body, the person getting buried
and
two spiritual separation from God, the ungodly doing the burying