way 2 go
Well-known member
‛ôlâm ‛ôlâm
o-lawm', o-lawm'
From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity
ok now to translate
he has put vanishing point into man's heart" :think:
he has put time out of mind into man's heart" :think:
he has put eternity into man's heart" :first:
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Context is key
Context is key
You were just given several translations that do not use the word 'eternity' in them. NOTE that even using your 'translation' does not prove or necessarily indicate that man's spirit is eternal. That is not even the subject or context of the passage. You are cherry picking your own limited words and interpretations.
See the Pulpit Comentary:
Also note that a doctrine of the afterlife or the immortality of the soul is not definitively found in the OT and only speculated by Jewish philosophers and theologians who often borrowed such concepts from oriental, Greek and pagan schools. Granted, classical Greek and Hindu metaphysics hold to the immortality of the soul defined in their own terms so a study in comparative religion is helpful here, to see the evolution of the concept in the judeo-christian arena. There are also differences between the terms 'soul' and 'spirit' and other facets of a person that make it a complex issue as to what survives physical death or has immortality-potential and what does not.
Context is key
You were just given several translations that do not use the word 'eternity' in them. NOTE that even using your 'translation' does not prove or necessarily indicate that man's spirit is eternal. That is not even the subject or context of the passage. You are cherry picking your own limited words and interpretations.
See the Pulpit Comentary:
Also note that a doctrine of the afterlife or the immortality of the soul is not definitively found in the OT and only speculated by Jewish philosophers and theologians who often borrowed such concepts from oriental, Greek and pagan schools. Granted, classical Greek and Hindu metaphysics hold to the immortality of the soul defined in their own terms so a study in comparative religion is helpful here, to see the evolution of the concept in the judeo-christian arena. There are also differences between the terms 'soul' and 'spirit' and other facets of a person that make it a complex issue as to what survives physical death or has immortality-potential and what does not.
calling God a liar good choice
Ecc_3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity in man's heart
No, I have never called God a liar.
Do you really think that "he has put eternity in man's heart" means "He has made everyone immortal"? It simply doesn't say that.
Romans 6:23 says "the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord". How could eternal life be a gift if EVERYONE ALREADY HAS Eternal Life? In Luke 18:18 a rich man asked Jesus "What must I do to inherit eternal life?" Why would he ask this if everyone already has eternal life? And if everyone already has eternal life, why wouldn't Jesus tell him "You already have eternal life, you will just spend it in eternal torture unless you shape up right now"? And if everyone is automatically immortal, why does Paul say in 1 Timothy 6:16 that only God has immortality?
Let's see, Calling God a liar? That is not a good thing to do, brother.
I suggest you study the scriptures to find the truth.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
calling God a liar good choice
Ecc_3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity in man's heart
Again,....this verse does not say man's spirit is eternal. The Preacher in this book can only say that man's spirit (breath) returns to God. There is no description (or very little) of an afterlife or the duration of a human spirit beyond Sheol in the Jewish scriptures. Ecclesiastes is only the limited wisdom of one or more writers representing the knowledge or belief held at the time of the writing.
way 2 go
Well-known member
Your spirit is eternal.
Eternal life as opposed to eternal punishment. Mat 25:46
the spirit lives on without the body
Isa 14:9 The place of death is excited that you are coming. Sheol is waking the spirits of all the leaders of the earth for you. Sheol is making the kings stand up from their thrones to meet you.
Isa 14:10 They will make fun of you, saying, "Now you are as dead as we are. Now you are just like us."
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
God has immortality as in he has no beginning no end.
opcorn:
way 2 go
Well-known member
God is eternal .
Christians are inheriting eternal life with an immortal body
as opposed to
most going away into eternal punishment
your spirit is eternal
and
you are either spiritually alive or spiritually dead , no middle ground
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Soul death.........
Soul death.........
See previous address.
As a spiritualist I do believe the soul-spirit lives on, undergoes a transformation at death moving on into the astral-spiritual plane, which may include a period of rest before resurrection into a new form or into a new dimension of existence. The possibility of a soul-spirit being inherently eternal or only conditionally immortal is what is being contested here. I'm still researching and exploring this from all schools, not just a limited biblical context, but am cognizant of biblical passages on the subject as I'm relating with those who prescribe their theology within such bounds.
What you need to acknowledge and read with the supplied articles is that 'conditional immortality' is supported by the Bible and accepted by many bible students. This means some souls may forfeit their opportunity for eternal life by continual rebellion and a full/final embrace of iniquity, which results in 'death'. These souls PERISH. The consequence of such iniquity fully ripened is destruction (disintegration). The Urantia Papers have the best description of this that I know of to date. NOTE: it is the functional integrity and personality-potential of these soul's that cease to be by consequence of sin,...the memory and experiences of true spirit-value of these persons continues on, is absorbed back into the oversoul of creation, nothing of true value is lost even though a soul may choose a path of self-destruction.
Soul death.........
See previous address.
As a spiritualist I do believe the soul-spirit lives on, undergoes a transformation at death moving on into the astral-spiritual plane, which may include a period of rest before resurrection into a new form or into a new dimension of existence. The possibility of a soul-spirit being inherently eternal or only conditionally immortal is what is being contested here. I'm still researching and exploring this from all schools, not just a limited biblical context, but am cognizant of biblical passages on the subject as I'm relating with those who prescribe their theology within such bounds.
What you need to acknowledge and read with the supplied articles is that 'conditional immortality' is supported by the Bible and accepted by many bible students. This means some souls may forfeit their opportunity for eternal life by continual rebellion and a full/final embrace of iniquity, which results in 'death'. These souls PERISH. The consequence of such iniquity fully ripened is destruction (disintegration). The Urantia Papers have the best description of this that I know of to date. NOTE: it is the functional integrity and personality-potential of these soul's that cease to be by consequence of sin,...the memory and experiences of true spirit-value of these persons continues on, is absorbed back into the oversoul of creation, nothing of true value is lost even though a soul may choose a path of self-destruction.
KingdomRose
New member
Your reasoning is right on the money. Cliffe is out in left field. God would not eternally roast anybody, much less someone who perhaps did wicked deeds for a few years of his life on Earth. So then the wicked has to pay by being tortured forever with no hope of relief? Nonsense. You are absolutely right---the concept of hell-fire is abuse. God does not torture people. He is merciful.
Hell-fire is a creation of men, and the faulty translation of the KJV has perpetuated the idea that comes from cruel imaginations. Dante really made a big impression with his "Inferno." He wasn't trying to be literal, but some men ran with it. They must've said...oh good! an excellent way to keep people in fear and pouring money into our coffers!!
Your spirit is eternal.
Eternal life as opposed to eternal punishment. Mat 25:46
the spirit lives on without the body
No...
By eternal punishment I assume you mean eternal conscious torment and not eternal destruction.
Eternal Conscious Torment is not the opposite of eternal life. The opposite of eternal life is eternally dead.
You haven't proven that the spirits of those who oppose God are eternal. You've also ignored every place in the Bible where it says that immortality is a gift from God, an inheritance given to those who put their faith in Him.
KingdomRose
New member
Good points!
The Bible says that the only person endowed with immortality was Jesus Christ. (I Timothy 6:16) Then those who have been anointed to rule with him will gain their immortality once their life course on Earth is through.
It's silly to say that spirits that oppose God are eternal. Satan and his demons are spirits and they will be destroyed---non-existent.
way 2 go
Well-known member
they are spiritually dead before they die and continue to be spiritually dead
we all have have an eternal spirit
life is a gift of God (spiritual alive)
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
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way 2 go
Well-known member
God has immortality as in he has no beginning no end.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
My problem with that statement is that the Bible never says that.
By adding the qualifier (spiritual alive) you've added to what the Bible says, you've changed what the Bible says. The Bible says that the gift of God is eternal life. What would you say to me if I changed what the Bible said in order to find support for my position? I can't imagine that you would let me get away with it. But you change what the Bible says, and that's okay?
"Damnation" is not a good translation of the word κρίσεως.
Here is a better translation of John 5:29
"and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." (ESV)
Here is the definiton of kriseos: judging, judgment, decision, sentence; generally: divine judgment; accusation.
I'll give you the link:
http://biblehub.com/greek/2920.htm
I think you should should consider that you could be wrong. I think you should investigate this with an open mind and an open Bible. I honestly believe that you are wrong about this. I don't say that with any malice towards you, as I used to believe what you believe. What you say is not convincing, it just looks like excuses you throw up as a defense so that you will not have to consider the truth. I'm telling you this in love, in order to help you.
I have one other minor technical point. When you quote a scripture passage like John 5:29, write out the entire reference as John 5:29 and not as Joh 5:29. That way TOL supplies a link to what the verse actually says. If you had done that, it would have been obvious to you that John 5:29 doesn't support your doctrine. Thanks!
way 2 go
Well-known member
there are 2 kinds of death
the destruction of the body
and
spiritual separation from God
way 2 go
Well-known member
we all have have an eternal spirit
clarify not qualify
κρίσις
krisis
kree'-sis
(Subjectively or objectively, for or against); by extension a tribunal; by implication justice (specifically divine law): - accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgment.
there are 2 kinds of death
the destruction of the body
and
spiritual separation from God
John 5:29
verse still works has condemnation instead of damnation
Suit yourself, but don't you think that condemnation to destruction is still condemnation? So you haven't proven that God wants to torture people in hell.
Also, the Bible doesn't support your statement that "there are two kinds of death, the destruction of the body and spiritual separation from God." If you want me to accept your statement that death really means "not death, but only spiritual separation from God", you need to provide Scripture support for this. This needs to be something that says "death really means spiritual separation from God".
What I believe is written in the Bible. You seem to believe a lot of things that "clarify" and change what the Bible says. Death doesn't mean death, it means spiritual separation. The gift of God is not eternal life, but "spiritual life". I believe what the Bible says, that "Whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have eternal life."
Who told you this? It isn't true.
Please give the evidence from the Bible that "spiritual separation from God" is a different kind of death.
way 2 go
Well-known member
how much of this is news to you ?
there are 2 kinds of death
the destruction of the body
and
spiritual separation from God