Justification of Eternal Punishment

[Totton Linnet]

Once again, I wonder if those of you who advocate the notion of the interminable suffering of other people (let's face it, it's always other people) - were actually witness to such pain if any sort of empathy and compassion would kick in.

lain:

A child raper and murderer unless they find repentance will suffer eternal punishment.

I agree with God's judgement.

Stalin decided to industrialize Russia which involve the wholesale slaughter of MILLIONS of good hard working men, women and children by policy.


....I hope he found a way to repent

 

[glorydaz]

I don't know what you mean. Who is Jerry Shugart? Is he a friend of yours? I'm just a guy who reads the Bible. My name is Tim, that's why I use the name "Timotheos".

Why would you have a problem with me? I don't understand that. I am simply stating what the Bible Itself says. The wages of sin is death, and whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but will have eternal life. Why would you even WANT eternal torture to be true? That makes no sense to me. You should thank me for posting the truth from the Bible, that God doesn't torture people alive for all eternity. This is actually good news. It isn't THAT good news for those who will perish, since they will be dead, but the REALLY good news is that they don't need to perish, if they put their faith in Jesus Christ, they too can have eternal life instead of perishing.

So I ask again, why would you have a problem with me? I don't get that.

Well, if I didn't have a problem with you before, I certainly do now. You left this message on my rep page....

You seem like kind of a dick.

I was referring to your lecturing tone with those who disagree with you. A word like "sock" is okay, but your comment is not okay. From what I've seen, your disagreement is with verses others have quoted to you. Get off your high horse and don't say anything to me that you can't post for all to see.

 

[Totton Linnet]

The truth is that we do not see the inner man, only God does, we see the outer man.

Jesus called some vipers, he was not using hyperbole....we have them here on TOL you can hear the hiss when you read their posts....I think they are worthy of whatever judgement God metes out to them.

 

[Totton Linnet]

We don't have peaceful world. It is filled with hate, wars, poverty and diseases.

When the God's kingdom starts, we will have peaceful, loving and perfect world on earth as it is heaven.

You hate God's church, God's kingdom


don't kid yourself

 

[Totton Linnet]

blotting out is not torturing in the fire eternity.

get real.





That still is not saying they will be tortured eternity.

You cannot fool anyone with this kind of childish talk.

Grow up.

The bible teaches eternal punishment not torture..stop twisting it.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Man in his present state is limited in what he can do...if he was unlimited what would be the end of his wickedness? if he commits such wicked crimes now.

 

[Arthur Brain]

A child raper and murderer unless they find repentance will suffer eternal punishment.

I agree with God's judgement.

Stalin decided to industrialize Russia which involve the wholesale slaughter of MILLIONS of good hard working men, women and children by policy.


....I hope he found a way to repent

Under your doctrine, many of those 'good hard working people' who suffered at the hands of a tyranny would be hell bound themselves.

Fail.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Under your doctrine, many of those 'good hard working people' who suffered at the hands of a tyranny would be hell bound themselves.

Fail.

You have no idea what my doctrine is

 

[Arthur Brain]

The bible teaches eternal punishment not torture..stop twisting it.

Oh please, talk about semantics. You think an eternal state of inescapable suffering of any sort wouldn't amount to torture?

:freak:

 

[Arthur Brain]

You have no idea what my doctrine is

Oh, what is it then? I was under the impression that you believed that every non believer went to 'hell' regardless of any atrocious crimes committed? Am I wrong? Please do explain what it is that you believe.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Actually, I've been told that I should go to hell to experience the torment for myself. I've been called "Satan" for not believing that God tortures people forever in Hell. The people who love the doctrine of eternal torture really are not nice at all. The most vocal of them are really jerks, to be honest. I believe that they really do want me to suffer.

Most of them do not care what happens to people who disagree with the views of their religion.

The Bible teaches just punishment before annihilation.

Mat 11:21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
Mat 11:22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
Mat 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
Mat 11:24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.
Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

LA

 

[way 2 go]

I'm sorry but you are wrong. It is still the smoke of their torment. The verse says the smoke rises forever and the verse still does not say that the torment lasts forever. You must really want THIS verse to say that the wicked will be tormented forever. I guess that is because there isn't any other verse in the Bible that you can turn to. So what is the "score"? This verse doesn't say that the torment lasts forever, and there is no other verse in the Bible that says that the torment lasts forever. There are many verses that specifically state that the wicked will be destroyed. Why do you reject the Scriptures that say the wicked will be destroyed, and force eternal torment into one verse that doesn't even say that? It is as if you want eternal conscious torment to be true.

if they are not there then it is not the the smoke of their torment

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."

AGAIN?

You don't read the posts in this thread do you? I JUST explained this verse, how it doesn't even prove that the eternal punishment is eternal torture, and it proves that only some people will receive eternal life. Yet you trot this verse out again as it this time will be the lucky time when it say "And these will go away into an eternal life of torture and the others will go away into an eternal life of bliss".

Since I already rejected this verse as proof of ECTism, Why on earth would you trot it out again to try to convince me? Did you think I would fall for it this time? Do you think I don't know what says?

I asked, "Do you ever listen? Do you ever learn?" Trotting out the same verse after you have already read that it isn't proof for ECTism proves that you don't listen and you don't learn. You want eternal conscious torture to be true. It is the only reason you would force ECTism into these verses. Surely you can see that Matthew 25:46 doesn't say that the eternal punishment is eternal torture. You aren't blind, are you?

yes again

Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

if they are not there it can't be punishment

 

[rstrats]

way 2 go,
re: "Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." if they are not there it can't be punishment"

If the punishment is torture for eternity, then the non-righteous will also have to go away into eternal life.

 

[freelight]

Educate.............

Educate.............

The bible teaches eternal punishment not torture..stop twisting it.

Wrong....already covered here, here and elsewhere.

 

[way 2 go]

way 2 go,
re: "Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." if they are not there it can't be punishment"

If the punishment is torture for eternity, then the non-righteous will also have to go away into eternal life.

unsupported statement

 

[freelight]

Research, consider and properly contextualize....

Research, consider and properly contextualize....

unsupported statement

The problem is understood or resolved first with recognizing 'aion' and its adjectival forms as referring to an indefinite period of time, an 'age', 'epoch', 'dispensation'...and that the term does not mean 'eternal' or 'everlasting' as in 'never-ending'. Scholarly articles explaining this have been provided. Matt. 25:26 is the only verse in the bible btw that speaks of 'eternal punishment' (but this is a mistranslation of English words, or a misrepresentation of a subtely peculiar word 'aionion').

Important to study:

Matt. 25:46 re-visited

The punishment ('kolasin') means "punishment, chastening, correction, to cut-off as in pruning a tree to bare more fruit." - this idea of cutting or lopping off as in pruning a tree to bare more fruit is significant, because it speaks of this 'pruning' as being 'corrective' or 'restorative' in nature,...so that a tree will bear more fruit, nipping off the unproductive parts. This 'chastisment' then is only for a certain season, until its effect is fulfilled. "whom the Lord loves he chastises". A loving parent properly disciplines his children, but only for his own 'good'. Such is the way of love. Love saves. Love corrects. Love heals. From a universalist perspective,....all will eventually/ultimately be transformed by the fire of God's holy and purifying love. All shall be made alive in Christ. This view favors Universal salvation.

From a 'conditional immortality' view,...only those who repent and choose life qualify to be partakers of the divine nature, while some refuse life and make a final decision to embrace death (after all opportunity for salvation has been rejected) and therefore PERISH. Note that in my view,...if 'conditional immortality' and 'soul-death' is true,..it is only after all opportunities in space-time have been finally and completely rejected that a soul could reap the full harvest of iniquity...which is DEATH. This must be so if we believe that the wages of sin is 'death', and that Jesus the Christ somehow saves us from 'death' (from perishing). - this brings an even deeper sentiment towards Jesus love, in that he came to give us not only 'aoinion' (age-enduring) life, but 'immortality' (this being the very nature of 'God' himself), ...the divine nature. In this view we differentiate from 'aionion' life and immortality, because the former is just life that lasts during an age or many ages (age-enduring, or for any given dispensation)...while the latter term 'immortality' refers to the divine nature itself.

~*~*~

The traditional-orthodox view of hell-fire and eternal punishment has souls being kept in a conscious-state of eternal agony (we can only guess about such a state though), an eternal condition of 'doom' with no hope of salvation, relief or restoration....EVER! It is so insane a condemnation or judgment as to be doubly damning in that it causes FURTHER pain and torment because these conscious beings have NO ESCAPE, no hope, no 'God' available to save them, no 'love' to reach out to them and relieve their torments. Such an enforced program of ECT is insidious...but this is more a 'criminal' act of the believers in such a program, than an actual 'God' of love, that could never impose such a system.

rstrats wrote:

If the punishment is torture for eternity, then the non-righteous will also have to go away into eternal life.

Our problems here again is with our definition of terms. Since 'aionion' refers to an age, age-duration, dispensation, an allotment of time,...it does not mean 'never ending'....so ”kolasin aionion" is an 'age-abiding' or 'age-continuing' punishment or chastisement (a lopping/pruning period),....NOT unending punishment or torment, because chastisement is only for a given period. So if we assume the proposition above,....the punishment does not refer to unending punishment....just punishment for an indefinite period of TIME. But assuming it means 'eternal punishment' (as assumed from its English inflection)...this does not mean the wicked are therefore enjoying "eternal life" because they are being kept conscious for eternity, since only those who are righteous or qualify for salvation enjoy the 'life' of 'God'. This 'aionion zoen' (age-continuing life) is given by 'God',....it is the effect of love (note that this love will chastise the others until they can enter into the ages of light and life as well, assuming that all shall be made alive in Christ, and God will be all in all.) - and notice folks,....'all' means 'all'. There is none or nothing left out of 'all'.

 

[Timotheos]

Well, if I didn't have a problem with you before, I certainly do now. You left this message on my rep page....



I was referring to your lecturing tone with those who disagree with you. A word like "sock" is okay, but your comment is not okay. From what I've seen, your disagreement is with verses others have quoted to you. Get off your high horse and don't say anything to me that you can't post for all to see.

Well, you do seem like kind of a dick. If you disagree with what I post, then post the evidence that what I posted was wrong. But comparing me to some jerk that you don't like seems like a dick move. Do you have any evidence that you aren't a dick? And just how am I supposed to explain my postition? If I explain what I believe you call it "lecturing", just like a dick would. If I'm wrong, and you aren't a dick, prove me wrong and I will apologize. You know what, I will apologize for saying you act like a dick first. Then I will expect you to not act like a dick anymore. How would that be? I'm sorry that I expressed my belief that you act like a dick, and I shouldn't have informed you that I thought you were acting like a dick, and I won't tell you that you act like a dick anymore, even if you do act like a dick. I guess someone else will have to tell you.

Or we could treat each other with mutual respect, something your first post to me failed to do. How would that be? Would you like to start over?

 

[Timotheos]

yes again

Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

if they are not there it can't be punishment

The Bible still says that their punishment is destruction.
I won't "lecture" you because Glorydaze doesn't like it when I do that. You can read that the wages of sin is death for yourself, Romans 6:23. There are many other verses that also say that the punishment is death and destruction but if I include them all in this post, Mr Glorydaze will say I am lecturing.

 

[Timotheos]

unsupported statement

Matthew 25:46 says that only the other group receives eternal life. If the wicked are tortured alive forever in hell, they also would have to have eternal life.

 

[rstrats]

way 2 go,
re: "unsupported statement"

That is incorrect - it's supported with logic. If a person is going to be tortured for eternity, they have to be alive - conscious - for eternity.