ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
do you agree that the damned suffer punishment before annihilation?
do you agree that the damned suffer punishment before annihilation?
way 2 go
Well-known member
Timotheos; said:
so it is eternal
it is punishment
is it painless punishment ?
are they conscious at any time ?
oh yeah
its the second death and that is where you lose your marbles
Jesus considers unbelievers dead
Mar 12:26 And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God spoke to him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'?
Mar 12:27 He is not God of the dead, but of the living. You are quite wrong."
even when standing at Judgement day Jesus considers unbelievers dead
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne,
so it is eternal
it is punishment
is it painless punishment ?
are they conscious at any time ?
oh yeah
its the second death and that is where you lose your marbles
Jesus considers unbelievers dead
Mar 12:26 And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God spoke to him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'?
Mar 12:27 He is not God of the dead, but of the living. You are quite wrong."
even when standing at Judgement day Jesus considers unbelievers dead
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne,
The dead will be resurrected in order to stand before the throne, then they will go to their second death. John 5:28-29 ESV
Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.
Believe whatever you want to believe. I will believe what the Bible says. The wicked will perish, Psalm 37:20. Go ahead and believe that the wicked will live forever in hell being tortured alive. Psalm 37:20 says that they will not live forever in hell being tortured alive, it says they will perish. The wicked will be no more, Psalm 37:10. Go ahead and believe that the wicked will continue to exist forever in hell being tortured alive. Psalm 37:10 says that they will be no more.
You said that I didn't believe Matthew 25:46, even though I believe that the punishment of being destroyed is truly a punishment, and is truly eternal. Basically, you lied about what I believe.
Now you are asking "is it painless punishment ?"
Does it matter? It is probably painful to be destroyed. Does Matthew 25:46 say that the punishment is painful? Do you WANT it to be painful? Are you a sadist?
You asked "are they conscious at any time ?"
Yes. Living people are conscious. Dead people are not conscious. This is pretty simple stuff. So the wicked who will be destroyed are conscious while they are alive, and after they have been destroyed, they will no longer be conscious.
Then you added this gem: "oh yeah
its the second death and that is where you lose your marbles"
You think I lose my marbles? Baloney. I believe that the second death is DEATH, just as the Bible says. You've lost your marbles because you believe the second DEATH is actually eternal life in hell being tortured alive forever.
Believe whatever you want, you've completely lost your marbles.
And for the idiot who posted "we've heard that you are leaving before", since people keep quoting my posts in order to misrepresent what I've said, I have to post in order to correct their lies. I don't want to, I have to. I you want me to leave, don't quote my posts.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
i'm surprised the mods let timmy's implied profanity slide
who is?
M
Man.0
Guest
'for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.” '(Romans 14:11)
'That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;'
(Philippians 2:10)
With the above verses in mind, can someone answer me this:
We know that all will give due reverance to God - so why are some/many of these reverers annihilated or thrown into eternal torment? "Because they didn't repent" you might say. Well, doesn't the fact they will be bowing down and giving reverance, show that they have repented? Doesn't it show that they have had a change of heart, and a change of mind, if they are bowing down to Him? Or are they being forced to submit? But how can that be, unless God is a tyrannical dictator, who must force submission to Himself?
Also, how is it that some of those who bow down, choose to do so; while others (who have not 'accepted Christ') are being forced? Shouldn't it be that either all bow down willingly, or all are forced? How can it be that some bow down willingly, and some are forced?
'That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;'
(Philippians 2:10)
With the above verses in mind, can someone answer me this:
We know that all will give due reverance to God - so why are some/many of these reverers annihilated or thrown into eternal torment? "Because they didn't repent" you might say. Well, doesn't the fact they will be bowing down and giving reverance, show that they have repented? Doesn't it show that they have had a change of heart, and a change of mind, if they are bowing down to Him? Or are they being forced to submit? But how can that be, unless God is a tyrannical dictator, who must force submission to Himself?
Also, how is it that some of those who bow down, choose to do so; while others (who have not 'accepted Christ') are being forced? Shouldn't it be that either all bow down willingly, or all are forced? How can it be that some bow down willingly, and some are forced?
M
Man.0
Guest
In regard to the doctrine of annihilation, I have this to say: If God destroys any of His human creation; wouldn't that mean He would be destroying reflections of Himself, seeing as He made man in His image? And doesn't that mean He failed, in His act of creation; if He has to destroy something that he made? Therefore, if God fails, then He isn't perfect, and if He isn't perfect, then how can He be God?
nikolai_42
Well-known member
Just a quick interjecting question here...if the end of the wicked is simply to not exist, why does Paul say this :
Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
2 Corinthians 5:11
And why is it that you think that being completely and totally destroyed (Think About It!) is not a reason for terror? Also, the Greek word is φόβος (phobos) and while it means "terror", it also means "fear" and even "reverence". So this verse does absolutely nothing to make me think that the wicked will not be destroyed.
I would like to be done with this argument, knowing that nothing I say or anything the Bible says will make the slightest difference to those who prefer the doctrine that God tortures other people in hell. I guess I will never be done proclaiming the truth here, because there will always be people who reject what the Bible says so that they can hang onto their beloved doctrine of torture. Torture of Other People, of course.
It is simple, really. While man was created in the image of God, the fall drastically changed that. The Bible says that the wages of sin is death. After Adam sinned, He was subject to the effect of sin, which is death. And if you think about it, God did not fail. He sent His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but will have eternal life. If I make two clay pots, and one of them is damaged so badly that I have to destroy it, and the other remains undamaged, have I failed as a potter? Not at all. I haven't failed if I destroy something I have made, in fact, that is my perogative as the potter. Therefore, it is also God's perogative as the Creator to save whatever He wishes to save and to destroy whatever He wishes to destroy.
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If I am banned, then I am banned. I don't care.
The only reason that word was asterisked is because the forum censors it. You will always be what you are, a jerk. The forum doesn't allow stronger language so I can't say what you really are.
Is this an argument for eternal torture or for universal salvation?
How can we believe that all will be saved when the Bible says that some will be destroyed? How can we believe that some will have eternal life in hell being tortured alive forever when the Bible says the wicked will be destroyed and will be no more?
It is very simple, every knee will bow before God because the only people who have eternal life are those who put their faith in God. "Every Knee" will be attached to a person who has put their faith in God. There will be nobody else, they will have been destroyed. The Bible says "The wicked will be no more".
You use secular knowledge to Christian faith to justify your perverted reasoning?
so typical.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
This tempering of the meaning of words where desired is a problem for any sort of universalism and possibly even annihilationism (you seem to espouse a sort of combination of the two). On the one hand, the universalist wants to push the bounds and assert that "all" either always means radically "all" or that it has to in most situations. But get to something that doesn't fit with the universalistic presupposition and then the words have to be weakened. This is a case in point. The Greek term phobos is where we get our word for "phobia". And the overwhelmingly predominant usage of the term in the NT is in the strong sense (i.e. unbridled fear...not mere reverence). And the context seems to fall right into line with that - knowing the terror that goes with not obeying God, Paul says they persuade men - do all they can to convince them of the need to heed God's Word. Paul's emphasis is pretty clear in verse 20 :
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2 Corinthians 5:20
I've seen this argument before and am starting to realize it's inconsistencies. The universalist (especially) and the annihilationist (maybe a little less so) has to stand on the bully pulpit and loudly proclaim that "all" means "all" (without exception) but then in cases such as 2 Cor 5:11 revert to a secondary or tertiary definition for no other reason than they couldn't be consistent otherwise.
EDIT : I realize this is more of an anti-universalist post, but consider that the idea that being extinguished totally is more of an escape. In that sense, it certainly would seem merciful to be snuffed out rather than suffer punishment. But look at a picture of this fear (prophetically) and see if you see any evidence of being totally removed from existence :
Now will I rise, saith the Lord; now will I be exalted; now will I lift up myself.
Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: your breath, as fire, shall devour you.
And the people shall be as the burnings of lime: as thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire.
Hear, ye that are far off, what I have done; and, ye that are near, acknowledge my might.
The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Isaiah 33:10-14
They aren't being extinguished, they are "dwelling" in everlasting fire.
You failed to say why you think it is that being DESTROYED is nothing to fear. (And I don't know how you could POSSIBLY think that what I believe is "a sort of combination of the two". Perhaps the belief that God tortures the lost forever in hell has fried your thinking???)
nikolai_42
Well-known member
Sorry...conflating the OPer with your more recent posts. That said, see the EDIT I added on my last post.
Oh, I see. Sorry about the "fried brain" comment.
Isaiah is asking "Who can dwell in everlasting burning?" The obvious answer is "Nobody can". This kind of question is often asked in the Bible, a question which directly implies the answer "No". This absolutely does not prove that the wicked will not be destroyed but will live forever being tortured by flames in hell.
And you STILL didn't explain why being destroyed is not a matter of terror. ANYONE who is about to be destroyed would live in terror of the destruction. Saying that the "terror of the Lord" means that nobody would ever be destroyed simply does not make any logical sense at all. Why should I believe that God tortures people forever in hell when there hasn't been a single logical or biblical argument given that God actually does torture people?