We have a debate section on this forum. There is no need to do it via email. After about a week you will have a private message feature become active. Then you can contact the staff and you have set up a one on one debate with the individual.
We have a debate section on this forum. There is no need to do it via email. After about a week you will have a private message feature become active. Then you can contact the staff and you have set up a one on one debate with the individual.
tous aionas ton aionon (for ever and ever, Rev 20:10, NIV) also appears in Rev 1:6 "and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever (tous aionas ton aionon)! Amen." Are you really going to deny that "for ever and ever" means all eternity here? Will the glory and power of Christ cease? Jesus says in Rev 1:18 "I am alive tous aionas ton aionon [for ever and ever]." Does Young's Translation have that Jesus will live only for a limited age? I don't think its the intention of the translator to suggest such a thing. Clearly, tous aionas ton aionon, no matter how modern translators choose to render it, definitely means for all eternity. This is how John is using this term throughout Revelation.
Rev 4:9 "to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever [tous aionas ton aionon]," Rev 11:15 says that God and Christ will reign tous aionas ton aionon - how long is that? Its only out of your bias that you change the interpretation of what tous aionas ton aionon means when its applied to eternal torment.
So, what would I do if someone hurt me? Its a big mistake to use what you would personally do or not do as a means of judging God. You are in no position to question the justice of God, for the way He thinks is not the way you and I think. To illustrate, I suppose neither you nor I would kill and innocent baby, or punish a baby for the sins of its parents, right? Yet, that's exactly what God did when he sent the flood in Noah's day which killed all the infants, its exactly what He did when he ordered the Israelites to kill man woman and child:
1 Sam 15:2-3 "This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”
Even women and children God wanted them to kill. Would you give that order? Would you take a sword and drive it through a infant in the cradle? 2 Sam 12:15, 18 says the Lord struck David's newborn baby will illness, and it died. I would not have done that, would you? But we can't use this as a basis for assuming what God would or would not do. We have to let Scripture speak for itself.
People who go to hell don't become righteous, they continue to sin as they reject God in their hearts, so their sin will be eternal, so is the punishment. Further, just as God loves eternally deep, he hates sin eternally deep as well. The balance of the eternal life we as believers are given, is equaled by eternal punishment for sin. God is infinite in not only his love, but also his wrath against sin.
Judging God is a big mistake post moderns make. They even use it as an occasion to blaspheme God and not make themselves accountable to Him.
If you can't see that a "devouring fire" actually devours what it dovours then you are simply denying that the Bible means what it says. I already know that you will hang into your doctrine of torture no matter what the Bible says, so what is left to be said? What does Psalm 37:10 say in your Bible? What does John 3:16 say in your Bible? What did God say to Adam? You will surely die or You will sure be tortured alive?
You are just denying what the Bible clearly says, and for no other reason than to believe that God wants to torment the lost in hell forever. Not even because the Bible says this, because it doesn't. Eventally, just because it is what you want to believe.
That is not what the verse says. But I think you already know that is not what the verse says. Re-read Psalm 37:10
Actually, Psalm 37:10 which says "The wicked will be destroyed" completely AGREES with Matthew 10:28 which goes on to say "But rather fear the one who is able to destroy both body and soul in Gehenna".
Jesus said that the Body and Soul of the wicked would be destroyed.
This parable is not talking about the final state of the wicked. Notice that the rich man's brothers are still alive at the time of parable. This can't be talking about what happens at the final judgment. The verse also fails as proof of eternal torment because it doesn't say that the torment is eternal.
No thanks. I don't want to watch the video. If there were a Bible verse that said that the wicked will go to hell when they die where they would be eternally tormented, you would have simply posted it.
I believe that the beast represents false government and the false prophet represents false religion. But it doesn't really matter WHO they are, since they are not "every person who ever lived", and so their fate is not necessarily the same as everyone else's.
No, because the Bible specifically states that the wicked will perish.
That's not the "rest of the wicked", that is just those who worship the beast or receive the mark. The passage also does not say even that they will be tormented forever. It says that the smoke will rise forever.
Why is it that you think that going into fire will not destroy those who are sent into the fire? Particularly knowing that Jesus specifically said in Matthew 10:28 that they WOULD be destroyed?
Once again, this does not say that there is eternal torment, it says eternal punishment, which we both believe. You believe the eternal punishment is eternal torment, and I believe the eternal punishment is eternal destruction. Please read my previous rebuttals BEFORE you post the EXACT SAME arguments OVER AND OVER. It is tiresome to have to explain the exact same thing over and over just because you won't do your homework.
Just because eternal life is eternal, that does not mean that those who are destroyed will ALSO receive eternal life. They will be destroyed. Their destruction will last forever. They do not need to be alive forever in order to be dead forever.
You keep forgetting (conveniently) that Rev 20:10 is talking only about the devil, the beast, and the false prophet. I do not deny that Jesus says the wicked will be cast into the fire. I agree, and I also agree with Jesus that the wicked will be destroyed in that fire.
NO. It doesn't. I asked you to provide a verse from the Bible that said "the wicked will go to hell when they die where they will experience torment forever". You failed to do that. Instead you threw up the same prooftexts that are always used, which simply do not say that the wicked will go to hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever. You also failed to address any of the multitude of scripture passages that specifically state that the wicked will perish, they will be destroyed, and they will be no more.
Once again, (sigh) Revelation 20:10 is talking about the beast, the false prophet and the devil. Not everyone else on earth. Please pay attention.
I am up for Bible Truth, but you haven't given me any. Every time you quote the Bible, you try to tell me that it means something that it doesn't say.
Do you really want clear Bible truth? Read John 3:16 and tell me what it says. This is clear Bible truth, but if you aren't up for it I understand. Read Roamsn 6:23 and tell me what it says. This is clear Bible truth, but if you aren't up for it I understand. Read Isaiah 33:1, Psalm 37:10, 37:20, and 37:38 and tell me what they say. This is clear Bible truth, but if you aren't up for it I understand.
You ignore what the Bible clearly says, just so you can hang onto your doctrine of eternal torture. I really don't expect that you will ever address John 3:16, Romans 6:23, Matthew 10:28 or any other verse which contradicts your false doctrine, none of your ECTist friends ever has, and I am sure you will avoid the scripture just the same as them. I keep hoping ONE of you will surprise me, and address the Scriptures, but none of you ever does.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
What happened to the burning bush? You are trying to apply merely natural characteristics of fire to a supranatural God. So when I read Isaiah 33:14 and men raising the question of being able to dwell in the fire (not questioning whether it is physically possible, but whether they can stand it), I have no problem seeing Lazarus in torment wanting a drop of water on his tongue (Jesus added all that detail to describe something that doesn't exist?) all in the context of a God who is a consuming fire and who can devour yet leave existence in tact.
And did Adam die? God said "in the day you eat of it...you shall surely die...". If he really is dead as you must believe (per God's words), doesn't that contradict the idea that death is necessarily utter and complete obliteration?
I can assure you this is not the case.
The Bible specifically says that the burning burn was not consumed by fire. This is noteworthy exactly because every other fire consumes what it burns, and the verse you yourself quoted said a "consuming fire".
No, I am attempting to get you to agree to what the Bible says and not what you WISH it would say.
Isaiah asks "Who can dwell in the fire?" He answers this in the next verse, Only the righteous can dwell in the fire. Are you going to attempt to tell me next that the wicked are given righteousness so that they can dwell in the fire of torment???
You are missing the plain FACT that a CONSUMING fire CONSUMES what it burns. That means that their existence is not left intact. They will be consumed by the consuming fire. You just WANT to believe the opposite of what the Bible says, don't you?
YES! Adam did die! Just as God said, Adam died. When he was 930 years old.
Not at all! God is more than capable of raising the dead, and I am certain that God will raise up Adam on the last day and give him eternal life. Are you forgetting about the resurrection????
I can plainly see that you will continue to believe in eternal torture no matter what I say and no matter what the Bible says. You must want Eternal torture to be true, why else would you continue to argue for it, when the evidence is clearly against it?
nikolai_42
Well-known member
I only have a few minutes but I will respond one last time.
If you agree that God is a consuming (or devouring) fire - which I believe you do - AND you believe that the fire on the bush was God, then you are caught by your own literalism. For here is the consuming fire that is....not consuming.
No. But it would be worth considering that if you believe God is a consuming fire (and therefore MUST consume) then what of those who dwell in His presence but are not punished? What you are requiring of the definitions affects you as well as those who believe torment is the fate of the wicked.
Once again, I point out that you are pushing for consistency in one way but ignoring it for yourself. Adam was told he would die IN THE DAY HE ATE OF IT (not 900 or so years later). Either he died that day or he didn't.
As I said before, I've been in other camps on this issue. The universalist stance is particularly problematic but even the conditionalist stance has problems. And knowing the fruit of both, I can be fairly confident in believing that there is an eternal consequence for the wicked that is worse than just not being conscious again.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
points to consider....
points to consider....
I don't know since its a complicated subject, but we have the law of karma (also called the 'law of retribution or compensation') which is appropriated measure for measure according to universal law (action/consequence) and we must consider the infinite LOVE of God working by divine wisdom, where justice and mercy are perfectly maintained, revealing Love as God's prominent nature.
As far as the eschatology involved, the order or process of how judgment or metaphysical laws take place (such as when a full embrace of iniquity results in 'death', or a process of adjudication of sins takes place)...we can only speculate...since there is a time factor in these processes, at least as we perceive such in a 'time-reference'. Mercy must allow for providential space and time for sinners to repent, as Love affords,...AND...it is only 'God' that knows if a soul is beyond repentance OR has made a final choice of absolute rejection of life (embracing iniquity whole-heartedly) whereby that soul has committed 'suicide' as it were, and DEATH in the fullest and final sense of the word ensues. This view is of course the 'conditional immortality' view, which assumes some souls can finally and eternally die (they are disintegrated).
Now as to God or some heavenly tribunal meting out 'punishments' before annihilation,...I don't see the need for that, since the ultimate 'death' of these souls is the ultimate 'result' of their sin, - in the meantime there is the reaping of what is sown in time, being the 'suffering' a sinner endures while conscious. The ultimate death of a soul is final, that being the consequence of the complete embrace of iniquity, which is a total rejection of God/Life. This is the second death, from which there is no resurrection for that individual soul-personality (although some aspects, memories, essences of this soul may continue of course, those which have divine value and are absorbed back into the OverSoul of creation). There are other teachings on this which go into more detail, but will bypass that for now.
Finally, as we shared before....on moral/philosophic grounds alone...the thought that a 'God' is enforcing and maintaining the eternal torment and suffering of souls TO NO END, is most heinous, to say nothing of insane. A Loving Father disciplines/chastises his children as a means of 'correction', hoping for rehabilitation/reform of his beloved, NOT condemning them to eternal punishment. Whom the Lord loves he chastises,....all suffering is to lead one towards the love of God, the purity and righteousness of his truth, laws and principles....whereby the soul is healed/restored...fulfilling their purpose of existence. Condemning souls to eternal torment with no possibility of relief or salvation EVER is just unthinkable. Hence some believe it is more merciful and logical for the wicked to be 'annihilated' but this is only after they have refused all opportunity of reform/repentance...and have made a final and eternal decision of utter rejection of God. In these cases,....the 'second death' is 'disintegration'....NOT eternal torment in some lake of fire or anywhere else for that matter.
So we see, there are many possibilities here, and we haven't gone into the wonderful option of Universalism whereby all souls are eventually/ultimate rejoined to 'God', the divine love and will ultimately being fulfilled, because God's will is all supreme
This will be enough for this segment to consider,...but never forget God's Love is INFINITE. Meditate upon that love....consider its magnitude, its long suffering, its power, its will, how it must include all his creation.
points to consider....
I don't know since its a complicated subject, but we have the law of karma (also called the 'law of retribution or compensation') which is appropriated measure for measure according to universal law (action/consequence) and we must consider the infinite LOVE of God working by divine wisdom, where justice and mercy are perfectly maintained, revealing Love as God's prominent nature.
As far as the eschatology involved, the order or process of how judgment or metaphysical laws take place (such as when a full embrace of iniquity results in 'death', or a process of adjudication of sins takes place)...we can only speculate...since there is a time factor in these processes, at least as we perceive such in a 'time-reference'. Mercy must allow for providential space and time for sinners to repent, as Love affords,...AND...it is only 'God' that knows if a soul is beyond repentance OR has made a final choice of absolute rejection of life (embracing iniquity whole-heartedly) whereby that soul has committed 'suicide' as it were, and DEATH in the fullest and final sense of the word ensues. This view is of course the 'conditional immortality' view, which assumes some souls can finally and eternally die (they are disintegrated).
Now as to God or some heavenly tribunal meting out 'punishments' before annihilation,...I don't see the need for that, since the ultimate 'death' of these souls is the ultimate 'result' of their sin, - in the meantime there is the reaping of what is sown in time, being the 'suffering' a sinner endures while conscious. The ultimate death of a soul is final, that being the consequence of the complete embrace of iniquity, which is a total rejection of God/Life. This is the second death, from which there is no resurrection for that individual soul-personality (although some aspects, memories, essences of this soul may continue of course, those which have divine value and are absorbed back into the OverSoul of creation). There are other teachings on this which go into more detail, but will bypass that for now.
Finally, as we shared before....on moral/philosophic grounds alone...the thought that a 'God' is enforcing and maintaining the eternal torment and suffering of souls TO NO END, is most heinous, to say nothing of insane. A Loving Father disciplines/chastises his children as a means of 'correction', hoping for rehabilitation/reform of his beloved, NOT condemning them to eternal punishment. Whom the Lord loves he chastises,....all suffering is to lead one towards the love of God, the purity and righteousness of his truth, laws and principles....whereby the soul is healed/restored...fulfilling their purpose of existence. Condemning souls to eternal torment with no possibility of relief or salvation EVER is just unthinkable. Hence some believe it is more merciful and logical for the wicked to be 'annihilated' but this is only after they have refused all opportunity of reform/repentance...and have made a final and eternal decision of utter rejection of God. In these cases,....the 'second death' is 'disintegration'....NOT eternal torment in some lake of fire or anywhere else for that matter.
So we see, there are many possibilities here, and we haven't gone into the wonderful option of Universalism whereby all souls are eventually/ultimate rejoined to 'God', the divine love and will ultimately being fulfilled, because God's will is all supreme
This will be enough for this segment to consider,...but never forget God's Love is INFINITE. Meditate upon that love....consider its magnitude, its long suffering, its power, its will, how it must include all his creation.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
You're just saying the same thing again with those verses. I understand you want to harp on the idea of death as simply being a final termination. Why not add in Ezekiel 18:4 and Ezekiel 18:20? It doesn't add anything to the discussion.
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Ezekiel 18:4
{If anything, that verse is a small problem for conditionalism...the souls being God's - will He destroy His own property?}
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Ezekiel 18:20
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 6:23
And more...
Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Ezekiel 18:31
Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live?
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.
Ezekiel 33:10-12
{But again...the question is raised - does everyone who sins die the very day they sin? That's what the above passage seems to say..."the day of his transgression" etc...}
Thank you for FINALLY telling me what these verses say in your Bible. It's like pulling teeth to even get ECTists to admit these verses even exist. Certainly I could have included Ezekiel 18:4 and nearly 100 other passages from the Bible that specifically state that the wicked will perish, be destroyed, and be no more. But the point in asking you to post these verses was so that you could see for yourself what the Bible says. And to ask you why you do not believe what they say.
Now, you said the Bible says that the sinner will die the very day he sins. That is not what the Bible says. The Bible says that the wicked will be resurrected and then they will be destroyed on the day of "Judgment and Destruction of the Ungodly". Even in Genesis, the Hebrew is "Mut ta Muth", which means "Dying, you will die". This is a perfect description of what happened to Adam as a result of his sin. "Dying, you will die", that is a perfect description of Adam becoming mortal as a result of sin. Indeed, the Bible says "For the wages of sin is death". Interesting how the Bible holds together throughout.
(incidentally, why WOULDN'T God be able to destroy his own property??? He would actually be the only one who legally COULD destroy his own property, so "All souls are mine, the soul who sins shall die" isn't problem for the Biblical Doctrine of Conditional Immortality in the slightest!!!)
This is not a problem for me AT ALL!
The fire in Exodus is said to not consume the bush. The Fire in Matthew 3:12 specifically says that the chaff WILL be burnt up. The Greek word is κατακαύσει and specifically means to be completely burnt up. If you read the Exodus passage in Greek, it is the opposite of this.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
I believe Jesus Christ who said "fear the one who is able to destroy both body and soul in Gehenna".
Do you believe the wicked have immortal souls? Which verse in the Bible says this? Please be specific.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
i'll take that as a yes
so you believe that living people's souls are not immortal
and you believe that the wicked, when they die, are punished by painless euthanasia
The Bible says that the wicked will be destroyed. I don't know if that is painless or not. The Bible doesn't say. Do you know of any verse in the Bible that says that the destruction of the wicked will be painless? I just believe what the Bible says. I believe that those who put their faith in Jesus Christ will inherit eternal life, so those who put their faith in Jesus Christ will be immortal, because of Him. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
You didn't answer my question. You seem to think that I must give good answers to any of your questions, but you never answer my questions. My questions must be too difficult for you. Do you believe that the wicked have immortal souls and where does the Bible say this?