way 2 go
Well-known member
best thing I have read in awhile considering the source .
Bible plainly states eternal punishment Mat 25:46
Rom 12:9 Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good.
best thing I have read in awhile considering the source .
Bible plainly states eternal punishment Mat 25:46
Rom 12:9 Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good.
Thanks. I believe Matthew 25:46.
Did you happen to notice that Matthew 25:46 says "eternal punishment" and NOT "eternal torment"???
Probably not. I believe Matthew 25:46 As Wriiten. I just don't believe what you have read INTO Matthew 25:46.
And JUST LIKE every otther believer in eternal torture, you completely ignore John 3:16 along with EVERY other scripture passage that contradicts eternal torture.
Believe whatever you want. I don't care anymore. I just believe what the Bible says, and I'm sickened by "Christianity" that rejects what the Bible plainly states. If you want me to take you seriously at all, deal with John 3:16. None of you torturists have even addressed John 3:16 yet, and I know that you will not.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Matt. 25:46 on trial........
Matt. 25:46 on trial........
Not true, since the greek word 'aionion' refers to an 'age', an indefinite period/season of time....being mistranslated as 'everlasting' ......and 'kolasin' translated by some as 'punishment' means "to prune a tree to make it more fruitful" ( a cutting or lopping off) - the sense here is a 'corrective period' or 'chastisement'. The so called 'punishment' is only for a period of time until its intended effect is fulfilled. For proof see the articles below if you really want to know the correct translation of the words -
>"Eternal" Punishment (Matthew 25:46) Is NOT Found In The Greek New Testament
>If Everlasting Punishment is not Eternal then how can Life be Eternal? (Matthew 25:46)
:thumb:
Matt. 25:46 on trial........
Not true, since the greek word 'aionion' refers to an 'age', an indefinite period/season of time....being mistranslated as 'everlasting' ......and 'kolasin' translated by some as 'punishment' means "to prune a tree to make it more fruitful" ( a cutting or lopping off) - the sense here is a 'corrective period' or 'chastisement'. The so called 'punishment' is only for a period of time until its intended effect is fulfilled. For proof see the articles below if you really want to know the correct translation of the words -
>"Eternal" Punishment (Matthew 25:46) Is NOT Found In The Greek New Testament
>If Everlasting Punishment is not Eternal then how can Life be Eternal? (Matthew 25:46)
:thumb:
way 2 go
Well-known member
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
so when it says eternal life you agree
when it says eternal punishment you can't redefine the meaning of
eternal
so you attempt to redefine punishment which isn't working out
for you since we understand words mean things
you can't punish someone who does not exist nor can show from this
verse that punishment means anything else other than the dictionary
definition of the word.
This accounts for the condition of men at any given time for an accounting, as the law of karma renders to each their due, but the passage does not prove souls cannot repent, unless there is a point of no return where a soul has entirely given himself over to iniquity and undergoes the second death. Ultimately only God and the higher tribunals can render such judgments as to those who have chosen the full consequence of sin, which is 'death' (not ECT). Such is the view of 'conditional immortality'. In this view the consequence of the full embrace of iniquity naturally produces its end result which is destruction, disintegration, 'death'.
Love must do all in its power to save, redeem, restore. If a soul by freedom of choice can choose life or death...the full potencies and destinies of each must be possible. So immortality is 'conditional' depending on choice. Those who choose life live, those who reject life perish.
The devil is in the details
You are calling God a liar---
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze 18:5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,
Eze 18:6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,
Eze 18:7 And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment;
Eze 18:8 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,
Eze 18:9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 18:10 If he beget a son that is a robber, a shedder of blood, and that doeth the like to any one of these things,
Eze 18:11 And that doeth not any of those duties, but even hath eaten upon the mountains, and defiled his neighbour's wife,
Eze 18:12 Hath oppressed the poor and needy, hath spoiled by violence, hath not restored the pledge, and hath lifted up his eyes to the idols, hath committed abomination,
Eze 18:13 Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him.
All men die the first death, so the soul who sins these sins in this life without repenting will die the second death with no buts about it.
No repentance is possible after the first death.
LA
You have admitted that death does not mean to cease to exist...that is the answer.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
All Ezekiel says is "the soul that sins, it shall die".....thats all. It does not say "there is no opportunity of repentance or resurrection after physical death". Also different meanings for 'death' abound. I say that any sentient being that has the ability to repent can be saved because the divine will and love is infinite and only God knows about the soul's ability and true intent.
As far as me calling 'God' a liar, I find that humorous.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
truth be told......
truth be told......
See here. With proper education of the original languages.....you will find the traditional concept of 'everlasting punishment' erroneous. If you disagree, read the articles fully and contest the evidence they provide....otherwise you will see the truth of the matter.
truth be told......
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
so when it says eternal life you agree
when it says eternal punishment you can't redefine the meaning of
eternal
so you attempt to redefine punishment which isn't working out
for you since we understand words mean things
you can't punish someone who does not exist nor can show from this
verse that punishment means anything else other than the dictionary
definition of the word.
See here. With proper education of the original languages.....you will find the traditional concept of 'everlasting punishment' erroneous. If you disagree, read the articles fully and contest the evidence they provide....otherwise you will see the truth of the matter.
way 2 go
Well-known member
words have definitions
everlasting =lasting forever
eternal = always existing
perpetual = continuing or enduring forever
Mat 25:46 AndG2532 theseG3778 shall go awayG565 intoG1519 everlastingG166 punishment:G2851 butG1161 theG3588 righteousG1342 intoG1519 lifeG2222 eternal.G166
G166=aiōnios
perpetual,eternal, for ever, everlasting
eternal life ,
everlasting life,
eternal punishment,
everlasting punishment,
no matter how you say them
all mean
lasting forever,
always existing,
continuing or enduring forever
You will not be laughing if even one person who hears you decides that they need not repent before they die the first death, because they believed you.
Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
Mat 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
Mat 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
Mat 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
LA
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
still comical; lets be serious scholars here......
still comical; lets be serious scholars here......
It appears you're jumping the gun here, since nowhere do I advocate not repenting, since repenting is always essential so long as its need exists. My former statements hold unless further revised, as well as my disagreement of the traditional concept of hell and ECT which I expressly state my reasons of their illogic, injustice and insanity here and elsewhere.
Since ECT is unacceptable, the options of 'conditional immortality' and 'universalism' avail further research. My former sharing of articles on the error of 'eternal punishment' also stands by understanding the original languages and their use in that time if anyone should care to properly inform themselves or else refute the evidence given.
still comical; lets be serious scholars here......
It appears you're jumping the gun here, since nowhere do I advocate not repenting, since repenting is always essential so long as its need exists. My former statements hold unless further revised, as well as my disagreement of the traditional concept of hell and ECT which I expressly state my reasons of their illogic, injustice and insanity here and elsewhere.
Since ECT is unacceptable, the options of 'conditional immortality' and 'universalism' avail further research. My former sharing of articles on the error of 'eternal punishment' also stands by understanding the original languages and their use in that time if anyone should care to properly inform themselves or else refute the evidence given.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
language issues.............
language issues.............
You need to go back here (links are blue text underlined) and study the articles which prove your assumptions above false, since you're missing what the noun 'aion' and adjective 'aionious/aionion' means and how it was used in the centuries before Jesus time by the classical greeks, Septuagint scholars, Jewish greeks, Jesus and his apostles and the early church fathers (first 5 centuries). The word generally refers to an indefinite period of time.....of limited duration...(an age, epoch, dispensation, season)....NOT endless unless the adjective is describing a subject that qualifies as endless or eternal such as 'God', etc.
The detailed article below addresses these words concerned on every scholarly level pertinent to arriving at the truth of the matter. If you're intellectually honest and a student of truth.....you will study the presentation and research for yourself. The truth is available.
Grammatically the doctrine of eternal punishments fails but fails more on moral and philosophical grounds alone...to say nothing of how such a monstrous doctrine defames God's character. Since some exalt the scriptures to such a high level it would behoove understanding language and translation issues, then considering the character of God and those principles of his government.
language issues.............
You need to go back here (links are blue text underlined) and study the articles which prove your assumptions above false, since you're missing what the noun 'aion' and adjective 'aionious/aionion' means and how it was used in the centuries before Jesus time by the classical greeks, Septuagint scholars, Jewish greeks, Jesus and his apostles and the early church fathers (first 5 centuries). The word generally refers to an indefinite period of time.....of limited duration...(an age, epoch, dispensation, season)....NOT endless unless the adjective is describing a subject that qualifies as endless or eternal such as 'God', etc.
The detailed article below addresses these words concerned on every scholarly level pertinent to arriving at the truth of the matter. If you're intellectually honest and a student of truth.....you will study the presentation and research for yourself. The truth is available.
Grammatically the doctrine of eternal punishments fails but fails more on moral and philosophical grounds alone...to say nothing of how such a monstrous doctrine defames God's character. Since some exalt the scriptures to such a high level it would behoove understanding language and translation issues, then considering the character of God and those principles of his government.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
so when it says eternal life you agree
when it says eternal punishment you can't redefine the meaning of
eternal
so you attempt to redefine punishment which isn't working out
for you since we understand words mean things
you can't punish someone who does not exist nor can show from this
verse that punishment means anything else other than the dictionary
definition of the word.
Here is the dictionary definition of Punishment:
"the infliction or imposition of a penalty as retribution for an offense"
So you can see that I do NOT "attempt to redefine punishment". The Bible specifically states that the penalty (or wages) of sin is death. Matthew 25:46 says "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." Matthew 25:46 DOES NOT SAY WHAT THE PUNISHMENT CONSISTS OF, and you HAVE to admit this. According to the definition of punishment, Death is a possible penalty as retribution for an offense. According to Romans 6:23 Death is the penalty for sin.
I know that you and Totten will NEVER EVER accept the truth, so after I refute Totten, I will leave because at this point it it just your stubborn refusal to accept what the Bible plainly states. You've hardened your heart to the truth, and you just believe in eternal torture because you WANT to believe in eternal torture. It is proven beyond any doubt that the wicked will perish and will be no more.
Believe whatever the hell you want to believe.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
That's crap and you know it. I do not believe that those who are dead are still alive, and you know it. Your proof is a parable. Yes, dead people can be alive in a PARABLE, but that doesn't mean that dead people are alive in real life!
You never posted what John 3:16 say in your Bible, but it seems that you are trying to change the definition of PERISH to NOT PERISH. The only reason you would want to do this is because you WANT eternal torture to be true. That's why you argue so violently for the doctrine of eternal torture. Your heart is hardened to the truth, and you will not accept the truth no matter what is written in the Bible, so I'm finished with you. Believe whatever the hell you want to believe. If it somehow makes you happy to believe that others are being tortured alive, then you won't believe anything else.
Psalm 37:20 says that the wicked will perish, Psalm 37:38 says the wicked will be destroyed, and Psalm 37:10 says that the wicked will be no more. The wicked will perish, the wicked will be destroyed, the wicked will be no more. You can't deny truthfully deny this. But I'm sure that you will deny the truth anyway, because you can't stand the truth, you prefer the lie of eternal torture.
You are blinded by your hardened heart. You should open your eyes and see what the Bible really says, but I know that you will never do this. Goodbye, and you will have a real surprise on the Day of Judgment and Destruction of the ungodly. Go ahead and oppose Jesus Christ on THAT day. I dare you to.
Screw you Sod
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way 2 go
Well-known member
so you do attempt to redefine eternal punishment as having an end
you can't punish someone who does not exist
so you are attempting to define death as annihilation
Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
so you are attempting to define death as unconscious
Mat_13:50 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
way 2 go
Well-known member
so no eternal life according to you
it is the same word used twice in this verse
Mat 25:46 AndG2532 theseG3778 shall go awayG565 intoG1519 everlastingG166 punishment:G2851 butG1161 theG3588 righteousG1342 intoG1519 lifeG2222 eternal.G166
G166=aiōnios
perpetual,eternal, for ever, everlasting
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Ok
Wrong assumption, the linked articles ive shared explain and prove their case quite satisfactorily,.......aion/aionios refers to an indefinitie period of time, and 'age' of limited duration and is qualified by the subject and context in which it is being used. The word also can refer to mans life-span on earth and other nuances in historical literature. Eternal life is for a given age (the kingdom or messianic age to come)...it endures for whatever time allotted as a dispensation. The articles fully explain and prove this if you would know the truth. Thank God one can research the facts on language use and discover the truth therein. Are you willing to research/read the articles?
On moral grounds alone however and being true to our Heavenly Father's character and nature, eternal punishment is insane and illogical, since love's discipline is always corrective meant to reform or rehabilitate. Love restores, redeems, empowers, renews. It does not inflict endless suffering or torment. To assume such is insane.
Wrong assumption, the linked articles ive shared explain and prove their case quite satisfactorily,.......aion/aionios refers to an indefinitie period of time, and 'age' of limited duration and is qualified by the subject and context in which it is being used. The word also can refer to mans life-span on earth and other nuances in historical literature. Eternal life is for a given age (the kingdom or messianic age to come)...it endures for whatever time allotted as a dispensation. The articles fully explain and prove this if you would know the truth. Thank God one can research the facts on language use and discover the truth therein. Are you willing to research/read the articles?
On moral grounds alone however and being true to our Heavenly Father's character and nature, eternal punishment is insane and illogical, since love's discipline is always corrective meant to reform or rehabilitate. Love restores, redeems, empowers, renews. It does not inflict endless suffering or torment. To assume such is insane.