Justification of Eternal Punishment

[Timotheos]

Scriptures says you are wrong, read it. ___ end of my dialogue with you in this. Rant on.

I read it. Here is what it says:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

That is what I believe, that the wicked perish and do not have eternal life and whoever believes in the Son of God will not perish and will have eternal life.

 

[Timotheos]

Do you at least see how a person could believe that the wicked will destroyed when they read in the Bible "the wicked will be destroyed"?

Of course, of course.

Then how are you people claiming that I don't believe what the Bible says? The Bible says that the wicked will be destroyed. I believe that the wicked will be destroyed. What I believe is exactly what the Bible says. Your side claims that the Bible means something different than what it says. I don't believe that but even if that were true, your side still couldn't say that I don't believe what the Bible says.

The Bible says that the wicked will be perish.
The Bible says that the wicked will be no more.
The Bible says that their end is destruction.
The Bible says that the soul who sins will die.
Jesus said that the way is wide that leads to destruction.
Jesus said that the unrepentant will perish.
The Bible says that the wages of sin is death.
The Bible says that the destruction of Sodom is an example of the coming destruction.
The Bible says that the wicked will pay the penalty of eternal destruction.
God told Adam that if he sinned, he would die.
Paul wrote that death entered the world through sin.
Jesus said that whoever believes in Him would not perish but would have eternal life.
The Bible says that the wicked will be burnt up like chaff.

Do you deny that the Bible says this?

 

[Word based mystic]

Gods word is not supposition.

Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Jesus makes it abundantly clear the consequences for the unbeliever.


everready

you have equated Gods word to your ((changed)) meaning or definition of His Words. It now is a totally different meaning and often the very opposite.
i.e. death means life. forever no longer means till the period of time or of the age.


You have imputed eternal life and indestructible and imperishable character to the wicked because the worm or fire is eternal

go figure...
you have added

you have change the meaning of forever, Which is (aion) of or within the age. also meaning a period of time.
to mean never ending.

the worm does not die
what does a worm do? feeds on (((dead))) flesh. the worm takes a while to (consume) it.

fire destroys and consumes duh
matthew 10:28 directly links death and destroy to the same as (kill)
not keep alive to be tortured.

bad logic and interpretation just to fit your Torture God view.

The heavenly Father will bring an end to his created childrens suffering and torment and that is the 2nd (death) it is to perish,
destruction, to vanish away, to cease to exist forever.

it is not the desire of God to have sin live forever. gen 3:22

 

[Cross Reference]

The body of a man can only die once, physically speaking. A "resurrected" body can never ever, physically speaking, die again.

Question: If his soul is not reconciled to God when graves are opened, what will be the disposition of such a body?

 

[Timotheos]

The body of a man can only die once, physically speaking. A "resurrected" body can never ever, physically speaking, die again.

Nice try. Lazarus was resurrected. Is he still alive? No.
The widow's son was resurrected. Is he still alive? No.
When Jesus was crucified, many people were resurrected from death. Are they still alive? No. If all of these 2000 year old people were still alive, don't you think someone would have noticed them?

If you are correct and a resurrected body can never die, why does the Bible talk about a second death?

It seems that you will say anything to defend your view. Why don't you just accept that the unrepentant will perish just as Jesus said?

Question: If his soul is not reconciled to God when graves are opened, what will be the disposition of such a body?

Jesus said that such a body would be destroyed, along with their soul. Matthew 10:28

You seem to be committed to one doctrine whether or not it has any support in the Bible. The Bible says that the wicked will perish and will be no more. The Bible says "their end is destruction", and "there is no future for the wicked".

But all sinners will be destroyed; there will be no future for the wicked. Psalm 37:38
Question: If the Bible is correct, and there is no future for the wicked then how do the wicked have a future of eternal conscious torture in hell?

 

[serpentdove]

He has not dealt with us according to our sins nor punished us according to our iniquities. For as the heavens are high above the earth so great is His mercy toward those who fear Him.

As far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us. (Psalm 103:10-12 NKJV)​

:listen: He knows if you

fear him (1 Sa 16:7, 1 Co 2:11).

Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you? Lk 6:46

See:

Judgment for the Ungodly

As a reminder Jamie is number 18 on Satan, Inc. in "The 'Jesus is not God' people (Non-trinitarians) category. :burnlib:

 

[Aimiel]

Then how are you people claiming that I don't believe what the Bible says? The Bible says that the wicked will be destroyed. I believe that the wicked will be destroyed. What I believe is exactly what the Bible says. Your side claims that the Bible means something different than what it says. I don't believe that but even if that were true, your side still couldn't say that I don't believe what the Bible says.

The Bible says that the wicked will be perish.
The Bible says that the wicked will be no more.
The Bible says that their end is destruction.
The Bible says that the soul who sins will die.
Jesus said that the way is wide that leads to destruction.
Jesus said that the unrepentant will perish.
The Bible says that the wages of sin is death.
The Bible says that the destruction of Sodom is an example of the coming destruction.
The Bible says that the wicked will pay the penalty of eternal destruction.
God told Adam that if he sinned, he would die.
Paul wrote that death entered the world through sin.
Jesus said that whoever believes in Him would not perish but would have eternal life.
The Bible says that the wicked will be burnt up like chaff.

Do you deny that the Bible says this?

Nope. Just denying that it means what you've presumed it does. Jesus said that the rich man was in hell tormented in flames. He also said that the smoke from those being tormented in the Lake of Fire and Brimstone would never stop. Do you deny The Bible says that?

 

[Timotheos]

Nope. Just denying that it means what you've presumed it does. Jesus said that the rich man was in hell tormented in flames. He also said that the smoke from those being tormented in the Lake of Fire and Brimstone would never stop. Do you deny The Bible says that?

Nope, I don't deny that the Bible says in that parable that the rich man was in torment while his brothers are still alive. So obviously, that parable cannot be talking about what happens at the final judgment, because the brothers would be there too. Isn't it great how the passages you pick don't really support your doctrine?

I also don't deny that the Symbolic Book of Revelation says the SMOKE will rise forever, however that is not saying that the torture lasts forever.

Now, do you think that the Bible means the exact opposite of what it says in every verse I posted? No, it doesn't. The Bible says that the wicked will perish, Is it wrong to believe that means that the wicked will perish? How so? Just because you think otherwise? Not good enough.

 

[Aimiel]

I believe that being tormented forever in flames, in darkness, without any company whatsoever, no hope of escape, with worms eating one's flesh is perishing, whether you believe that it is or not. ECT is described many times in The Bible. Scripture wouldn't describe such if there weren't any. Jesus wasn't kidding around. He said one would be better off cutting off limbs or poking one's eyes out rather than entering hell. You go ahead and pretend He was joking. I, for one, believe Jesus. Sorry you don't.

 

[freelight]

I believe that being tormented forever in flames, in darkness, without any company whatsoever, no hope of escape, with worms eating one's flesh is perishing, whether you believe that it is or not. ECT is described many times in The Bible. Scripture wouldn't describe such if there weren't any. Jesus wasn't kidding around. He said one would be better off cutting off limbs or poking one's eyes out rather than entering hell. You go ahead and pretend He was joking. I, for one, believe Jesus. Sorry you don't.

Yep, its all about your 'belief'. Note, its just a 'belief'.



pj

 

[Timotheos]

I believe that being tormented forever in flames, in darkness, without any company whatsoever, no hope of escape, with worms eating one's flesh is perishing, whether you believe that it is or not. ECT is described many times in The Bible. Scripture wouldn't describe such if there weren't any. Jesus wasn't kidding around. He said one would be better off cutting off limbs or poking one's eyes out rather than entering hell. You go ahead and pretend He was joking. I, for one, believe Jesus. Sorry you don't.

Jesus said that those entering hell would have both Body and Soul destroyed in hell (Gehenna). Jesus never said that those going to Gehenna would be tortured alive. You may think that Jesus was mistaken when He said "fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna." I believe that He meant what he said.

 

[Word based mystic]

Jesus said that those entering hell would have both Body and Soul destroyed in hell (Gehenna). Jesus never said that those going to Gehenna would be tortured alive. You may think that Jesus was mistaken when He said "fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna." I believe that He meant what he said.

just to re affirm that.
the first part of the scripture is pointedly using the word and concept of (((kill))).

putting context to destroy.

 

[Timotheos]

just to re affirm that.
the first part of the scripture is pointedly using the word and concept of (((kill))).

putting context to destroy.

Yes, exactly. Those who claim that "destroy" doesn't really mean destroy are denying the words of Jesus Christ Himself.

I'm reminded of the Serpent in the Garden, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"

 

[Cross Reference]

Jesus also said this:

"Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God." Matthew 5:8 (KJV)

If God is a Spirit and the scriptures say He is, how can that be a "literal" statement of fact from Jesus?

Perhaps He was teaching by using parables again?

 

[Timotheos]

Jesus also said this:

"Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God." Matthew 5:8 (KJV)

If God is a Spirit and the scriptures say He is, how can that be a "literal" statement of fact from Jesus?

Perhaps He was teaching by using parables again?

Perhaps, or perhaps Jesus was saying that the pure in heart will be resurrected and then they will see God face to face.

 

[Word based mystic]

many of the christian philosophers first obtained their philosophies from plato and socrates.

A core element of plato and socrates was that the soul was indestructible and immortal.

often on this subject I see expressions and thoughts of platonic beliefs.

also i see eastern philosophies like ying yang concepts where contrast is needed or demanded in the universe.
very little of the concepts have a scriptural foundation. but are speculative, logical assumptions. If, then suppositions.
i.e. because the worm and fire is continual and is not quenched therefore that which it consumes is never ending and cannot die. or is possibly regenerated and or resurrected continually after destruction for a never ending rounds of reincarnation for torment purposes.
this is an exact opposite of most plain scriptures in relation to the wickeds reward, judgement or punishment after resurrection and judgement.


supposition and speculation are the only concrete jumping off points for imperishable/indestructible wicked souls.

modern day english changes in the dictionary meaning of Forever are preferred by preachers and modern day christians over the original near opposite meaning of for(ever) in the original greek and hebrew meanings.

modern day redefinition is (never ending)

original greek and hebrew meaning is Till the end of the age, also a period of time within that framework of that age.

the rich man and lazarus serves to verify the souls temporary existence so as to facilitate the substance of the soul being maintained until after the final judgement.
Which of Course is the 2nd (death). matthew 10:28

 

[Cross Reference]

Perhaps, or perhaps Jesus was saying that the pure in heart will be resurrected and then they will see God face to face.

Since you and Wbm see fit to play ignorant in your replies, why be so c*** sure of yourselves the word destroy, in the literal sense, be defined as being so as you demand? If you can't fathom out the word "see", as given in context to be a portrait of Spiritual intimacy with God, why don't you both back off to accept the absoluteness of what it means to be COMPLETElY severed from the grace of God?? __ something He cannot reverse. What have you to gain by refusing to do so?

 

[Word based mystic]

Since you and Wbm see fit to play ignorant in your replies, why be so c*** sure of yourselves the word destroy, in the literal sense, be defined as being so as you demand? If you can't fathom out the word "see", as given in context to be a portrait of Spiritual intimacy with God, why don't you both back off to accept the absoluteness of what it means to be COMPLETElY severed from the grace of God?? __ something He cannot reverse. What have you to gain by refusing to do so?

never once have I disagreed with the need and the implications of intimacy with God. nor the separation of Gods presence as either a judgement or punishment for the wicked.

Being that Jesus Is the Life and that no man without Him can have life eternal I am in agreement.
that is a severing from God on judgement day. No possibility of life, resurrection or regeneration.

the 2nd death will destroy, sever the access to Gods presence or His Grace.

How can anything be sustained without that Grace/empowerment to life. They like so many scriptures say (vanish away, cease to exist.)

Grace being the empowerment for life and anything of His inheritance.

our spirit is (born again) through and in Christ.
thus allowing us to commune and be empowered with the Holy Spirit.
Spirit to spirit.

our spirit man died upon eating of the tree.
just like God said. upon that DAY.
and just like Satan lied to us (you shall not die).

that is why the Holy Spirit did not and could not indwell those in the O.T. but only come upon men.

Thus the wicked without being born again can not live eternally due to the eternal carrier of eternal life being dead within us (the spirit man)
This is a main reason we need to be (born again).

 

[everready]

Yes, exactly. Those who claim that "destroy" doesn't really mean destroy are denying the words of Jesus Christ Himself.

I'm reminded of the Serpent in the Garden, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"

Destroy really means destroy everlasting destruction really means everlasting destruction.

I'm reminded of what Gods word says in

II Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


everready

 

[Cross Reference]

never once have I disagreed with the need and the implications of intimacy with God.

I don't see where that is relevant in this when you obviously are obfuscating your responsibility in rightly dividing the word of truth.

Use the same rule when defining both words: "destroy" and "see".