Justification of Eternal Punishment

[Word based mystic]

Word Based Mystic,

Please learn to use sentence structure, punctuation and paragraphs. When you do, I'll read your posts. Until then: yours are scrolled past.

Thanks,

Aimiel :thumb:

http://www.english-grammar-revolution.com/sentence-structure.html
http://www.busyteacherscafe.com/literacy/paragraph.html
http://www.wikihow.com/Use-English-Punctuation-Correctly

when i get a few minutes before i go to work
i grab what i can and put it down.

sorry about the sentence structure and punctuation. I am not an administrative kind of guy
so when in a hurry
it is either put it out there quick or withdraw.

I choose to put it out there.

my lack of perfection in :mock: grammer does not eliminate the argument.

from now on though to appease your delicate sensibilities I will only respond when i have proper time.

 

[Timotheos]

I don't assume anything. I assume that smoke of torment ascending for ever and ever means just that. Where there's smoke there's torment.

According to the Bible, the wicked are destroyed. "Where there's smoke there's torment"? Why do you think that? Where there's smoke there is fire. Fire burns things up, fire destroys thing. Last weekend, I put a chicken in my smoker grill. There was plenty of smoke and no torment at all. So your assumption that "where there's smoke there's torment" is inaccurate.

The Bible says that the wicked will be destroyed. since I believe the Bible, I have to believe that the wicked will be destroyed instead of being Not-Destroyed and tortured alive forever. Why don't you believe what the Bible says?

 

[Aimiel]

According to the Bible, the wicked are destroyed.

Yes, but being 'destroyed' in the spirit realm and in the temporal realm are two different things. Also: according to The Bible, the smoke of their torment ascends for ever and ever.

The Bible says that the wicked will be destroyed. since I believe the Bible, I have to believe that the wicked will be destroyed instead of being Not-Destroyed and tortured alive forever. Why don't you believe what the Bible says?

You don't believe that the smoke of their torment will ascend for ever and ever. Why don't you believe what The Bible says? :duh:

 

[Word based mystic]

Yes, but being 'destroyed' in the spirit realm and in the temporal realm are two different things. Also: according to The Bible, the smoke of their torment ascends for ever and ever.You don't believe that the smoke of their torment will ascend for ever and ever. Why don't you believe what The Bible says? :duh:

yes their smoke will ascend till the end of the age.

till the new age of the new heaven and earth.

The Smoke of their torment may rise and ascend till the end of the age, but that does not equate to the wicked shall live past the end of the age .

psalm 37:20 But the wicked will (perish); And the enemies of the LORD will be like the glory of the pastures, They vanish-- (((like smoke they vanish away))).

psalm 68:2 May you blow them away like smoke-- as wax melts before the fire, may the wicked perish before God.

 

[Aimiel]

The smoke of their torment ascends for ever and ever.

 

[Cross Reference]

The smoke of their torment ascends for ever and ever.

Amen! They are the ones who NEED to interpret scripture to make it fit their bias and we are condemned if we don't see it their way. For the reason "why" is anyones guess. Problem for me is that it "shades" everything else they say one might agree upon being recognized it is all based upon an untruth that only compromises their belief __ a belief that, in the finality, won't take us home to "Father's House".

 

[Ben Masada]

Yes death. Yes all who sin must die. Yes, all who die will also be judged. Yes, their flesh will be destroyed by flames and worm will eat their bones, for eternity. This will happen to all whose names were not written in The Lamb's Book of Life. Ignoring that after death comes judgment and eternal conscious torment is not being faithful to The Holy Scriptures. Those whose names are recorded in The Lamb's Book of Life will receive eternal life. Eternal suffering is the only fate found in Scriptures for those who chose death over life.

Noooo!!! Are you sure! Now, I wonder why babies die every day when they have never committed a single sin.

Do you know why Adam and Eve were banished from the Garden of Eden? If you read Gen. 3:22, it was to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and live forever. I wonder if it was because the attribute of eternal life could not be shared with humans. Aimiel, the only thing eternal about man is death, nothing else.

 

[everready]

Temporal And Eternal

Temporal And Eternal

yes their smoke will ascend till the end of the age.

till the new age of the new heaven and earth.

The Smoke of their torment may rise and ascend till the end of the age, but that does not equate to the wicked shall live past the end of the age .

psalm 37:20 But the wicked will (perish); And the enemies of the LORD will be like the glory of the pastures, They vanish-- (((like smoke they vanish away))).

psalm 68:2 May you blow them away like smoke-- as wax melts before the fire, may the wicked perish before God.

Those are things we can see but what of those things we can't?

II Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.


everready

 

[Cross Reference]

Noooo!!! Are you sure! Now, I wonder why babies die every day when they have never committed a single sin.

Babies are held blameless as in being innocent!! Ergo, NO damnation!!

Death = separation from God in whatever 'form' that might be, either from a life that cannot die or one that does.

 

[Timotheos]

Yes, but being 'destroyed' in the spirit realm and in the temporal realm are two different things. Also: according to The Bible, the smoke of their torment ascends for ever and ever.You don't believe that the smoke of their torment will ascend for ever and ever. Why don't you believe what The Bible says? :duh:

Do you at least see how a person could believe that the wicked will destroyed when they read in the Bible "the wicked will be destroyed"?

I believe the SMOKE of their torment will rise forever, that is what that verse says, but you are asking me to believe something else - that their torment continues forever. The Bible doesn't say "being 'destroyed' in the spirit realm and in the temporal realm are two different things."

 

[Timotheos]

Amen! They are the ones who NEED to interpret scripture to make it fit their bias and we are condemned if we don't see it their way. For the reason "why" is anyones guess. Problem for me is that it "shades" everything else they say one might agree upon being recognized it is all based upon an untruth that only compromises their belief __ a belief that, in the finality, won't take us home to "Father's House".

No, I believe exactly what the Bible says, "The wicked will perish", "The wicked will be no more", "Their end is destruction". The reason "WHY" is NOT anyone's guess. The reason that I believe the Bible is because it is God's Word and I believe what it says. Your side needs to interpret scripture to make it fit your bias. The Bible says that the wicked will be destroyed, but you must interpret "destroyed" to mean "never destroyed, but tortured in hell" to make the Bible fit your bias. Why you do this is anyone's guess. Tradition, I suppose. The Bible says that the wages of sin is death, but your side must interpret "death" as "everlasting life in hell being tortured alive" to make the Bible fit your bias.

I'm reminded of what Jesus said about the speck and the log. You can't see that your accusation of those of us who believe the Bible fits your side better. I can't understand why you would even want to deny what the Bible says in order to justify eternal torture.

 

[Cross Reference]

No, I believe exactly what the Bible says, "The wicked will perish", "The wicked will be no more", "Their end is destruction". The reason "WHY" is NOT anyone's guess. The reason that I believe the Bible is because it is God's Word and I believe what it says. Your side needs to interpret scripture to make it fit your bias. The Bible says that the wicked will be destroyed, but you must interpret "destroyed" to mean "never destroyed, but tortured in hell" to make the Bible fit your bias. Why you do this is anyone's guess. Tradition, I suppose. The Bible says that the wages of sin is death, but your side must interpret "death" as "everlasting life in hell being tortured alive" to make the Bible fit your bias.

I'm reminded of what Jesus said about the speck and the log. You can't see that your accusation of those of us who believe the Bible fits your side better. I can't understand why you would even want to deny what the Bible says in order to justify eternal torture.

Scriptures says you are wrong, read it. ___ end of my dialogue with you in this. Rant on.

 

[everready]

No, I believe exactly what the Bible says, "The wicked will perish", "The wicked will be no more", "Their end is destruction". The reason "WHY" is NOT anyone's guess. The reason that I believe the Bible is because it is God's Word and I believe what it says. Your side needs to interpret scripture to make it fit your bias. The Bible says that the wicked will be destroyed, but you must interpret "destroyed" to mean "never destroyed, but tortured in hell" to make the Bible fit your bias. Why you do this is anyone's guess. Tradition, I suppose. The Bible says that the wages of sin is death, but your side must interpret "death" as "everlasting life in hell being tortured alive" to make the Bible fit your bias.

I'm reminded of what Jesus said about the speck and the log. You can't see that your accusation of those of us who believe the Bible fits your side better. I can't understand why you would even want to deny what the Bible says in order to justify eternal torture.

No Timotheos you don't believe what the bible says you believe what man has taught you, temporal thoughts don't work in the spiritual realm, you must be born again to see the kingdom of God.

everready

 

[Word based mystic]

Those are things we can see but what of those things we can't?

II Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.


everready

so your saying the scriptures which are seen are temporal

what things that we can't see are you talking about?

and now you are judging a persons salvation because they take the scriptures definitions and descriptions more concrete, rather than supposition and speculative ideas like the wicked having eternal souls with life?

 

[everready]

so your saying the scriptures which are seen are temporal

what things that we can't see are you talking about?

and now you are judging a persons salvation because they take the scriptures definitions and descriptions more concrete, rather than supposition and speculative ideas like the wicked having eternal souls with life?

Mark 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

That's one place i could show you more but you can't/won't see it,
annihilation is a false doctrine not to be confused with the gospel.


everready

 

[Aimiel]

Do you at least see how a person could believe that the wicked will destroyed when they read in the Bible "the wicked will be destroyed"?

Of course, of course. I believe that some guy might pick up a Bible and read about Judas hanging himself and go out and buy a rope, but I'm not worried about people who don't have any common sense, if they don't have someone watching out for them to protect them from themselves. We can read The Holy Scriptures and come to conclusions that about 90% of orthodox Christian beliefs are actually correct. The ones that aren't are controversial between many denominations and I believe that God designed His Word as a Sword so that we might learn fencing (with His Word) from one another to perfect our witnessing such that when we are called upon by Him to witness to un-believers we will be able to perform more perfectly. He came to bring us That Sword and to set fire to this earth and it has finally gotten kindled. We're seeing the beginning of sorrows and woes upon this earth and will (hopefully) live to see The Lord coming for us in the air. Faithful are the wounds of a friend. Iron sharpens iron. Our words are life and spirit to those who hear them and come to everlasting life through our witness and The Blood of The Lamb.

I believe the SMOKE of their torment will rise forever, that is what that verse says, but you are asking me to believe something else - that their torment continues forever.

Should their torment EVER cease, even if it were ten trillion years from now, eventually the smoke would cease, since the torment had. You're not following logic if you think otherwise.

The Bible doesn't say "being 'destroyed' in the spirit realm and in the temporal realm are two different things."

It doesn't say they're the same, either. How many people do you know that could be tormented while engulfed in flame while carrying on a conversation, as the rich man did with Abraham? I imagine: NONE. His soul, while in torment, could converse with Abraham because communication in the spirit realm is through thought, not speech. There is no hindrance or darkness in spirit. All is exposed. There is no privacy. None is needed. Abraham's thoughts could be known by the rich man and the rich man's thoughts could be known by Abraham, even though the man was screaming in agony in flames of torment in hell.

 

[Word based mystic]

Mark 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

That's one place i could show you more but you can't/won't see it,
annihilation is a false doctrine not to be confused with the gospel.


everready

so because the fire is unquenchable that makes the wicked soul eternal hmmm..

supposition

seen all that

the fire and the worm consume/destroy, cause to perish

what more do i need to know? or you could redefine those words to be the opposite like ECT does.

indestructible wicked soul
imperishable wicked soul
eternal life wicked soul.
regenerating wicked soul

you could also disagree with matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

or disagree with psalm 37:20 But the wicked will perish; And the enemies of the LORD will be like the glory of the pastures, They vanish-- like smoke they vanish away

 

[Word based mystic]

another neat trick ECT does is redefine forever to not mean till the end of the age

but rather never ending.

not it's real meaning which is aion till the age of, also period of time.

making the wicked soul never ending, eternal and infinite, Which only God and His kingdom has those attributes.

ECT way to go making things that pass away to be never ending.

 

[everready]

Gods word is not supposition.

Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Jesus makes it abundantly clear the consequences for the unbeliever.


everready

 

[freelight]

A defamation of love..............

A defamation of love..............

The smoke of their torment ascends for ever and ever.

An undue focus or emphasis on this 'phrase' (one of many metaphoric terms in the book of Revelation), as to glorify 'God' as one who inflicts/enforces and sustains a condition of eternal torment (agony/pain/suffering) upon souls, is insidious.

My former commentaries on the problems of ECT here. Readers joining along might want to reassess this tormentous and monstrous image of 'God', which defies justice, let alone mercy. Also, a perpetual punishment of eternal duration for temporal sins is unrational, unless by the law of compensation (karma)...one is perpetually committing a sin to put himself in a perpetual state of suffering, as a consequence.

If love and wisdom are upheld in their divine affection, in the light of balancing 'justice' and 'mercy' perfectly,....there could be no ECT possible as traditionally assumed, since any punishments would be corrective/restorative in nature, a learning or purifying process, since love's motivation and will are towards life, peace, wellbeing, progress, unfolding one's innate potential and creativity.

Remember, what is Love's will? What is Love's nature? Does Love inflict eternal torment/pain/agony/damnation upon a soul? Does Love revel in the thought of souls in eternal agony? If so, I think you need to re-evaluate your definition of 'love', and your 'concept' of 'God' while your at it....since the two are one.



pj