Jesus CANNOT be Jehovah/YHVH God

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MennoSota

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Dartman said:
Gen 39:2-3 And Jehovah was with Joseph, and he was a prosperous man; and he was in the house of his master the Egyptian. 3 And his master saw that Jehovah was with him, and that Jehovah made all that he did to prosper in his hand.


1 Sam 3:19 And Samuel grew, and Jehovah was with him, and did let none of his words fall to the ground.


1 Sam 18:12 And Saul was afraid of David, because Jehovah was with him, and was departed from Saul.


1 Sam 18:14 And David behaved himself wisely in all his ways; and Jehovah was with him.


2 Sam 5:10 And David waxed greater and greater; for Jehovah, the God of hosts, was with him.


2 Kings 18:1,6,7 Now it came to pass in the third year of Hoshea son of Elah king of Israel, that Hezekiah the son of Ahaz king of Judah began to reign.


6 For he clave to Jehovah; he departed not from following him, but kept his commandments, which Jehovah commanded Moses.
7 And Jehovah was with him; whithersoever he went forth he prospered: and he rebelled against the king of Assyria, and served him not.


1 Chron 9:20 And Phinehas the son of Eleazar was ruler over them in time past, (and) Jehovah was with him.


2 Chron 1:1 And Solomon the son of David was strengthened in his kingdom, and Jehovah his God was with him, and magnified him exceedingly.




2 Chron 15:8-9 And when Asa heard these words, and the prophecy of Oded the prophet, he took courage, and put away the abominations out of all the land of Judah and Benjamin, and out of the cities which he had taken from the hill-country of Ephraim; and he renewed the altar of Jehovah, that was before the porch of Jehovah.
9 And he gathered all Judah and Benjamin, and them that sojourned with them out of Ephraim and Manasseh, and out of Simeon: for they fell to him out of Israel in abundance, when they saw that Jehovah his God was with him.


Luke 1:66-77 And all that heard them laid them up in their heart, saying, What then shall this child be? For the hand of the Lord was with him.
67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying,
68 Blessed (be) the Lord, the God of Israel; For he hath visited and wrought redemption for his people,
69 And hath raised up a horn of salvation for us In the house of his servant David
70 (As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets that have been from of old),
71 Salvation from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
72 To show mercy towards, our fathers, And to remember his holy covenant;
73 The oath which he spake unto Abraham our father,
74 To grant unto us that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies Should serve him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before him all our days.
76 Yea and thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Most High: For thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to make ready his ways;
77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people In the remission of their sins,


Acts 10:38 even Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.


Here is a better translation, based on Hebrew texts roughly 1500 years closer to the original documents than our OT.

For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and
his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and
health to him. His government shall be great, and of his peace there is no end: it shall be upon
the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to support it with judgment and
with righteousness, from henceforth and forever. The seal of the Lord of hosts shall perform
this.
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My translation is ESV, the most accurate to the Hebrew and Greek. You simply show your bias and unwillingness to accept that your universal claim is false.
 
glorydaz

glorydaz

Well-known member
chair said:
It is possible that John had a different view of who or what Jesus was than the other gospels did.
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Basically, each of the Gospel writers had a different mission...to present Jesus Christ as Messiah/King (Matthew), Servant (Mark), His humanity (Luke), and His Deity (John). So, John's mission was to present Jesus Christ as God come to dwell among us.
 
D

Dartman

Active member
MennoSota said:
My translation is ESV, the most accurate to the Hebrew and Greek.
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Your opinion.

M said:
You simply show your bias and unwillingness to accept that your universal claim is false.
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Possibly.

I definitely have seen NO Scripture that would cause me to doubt my doctrine. Your attempt to twist the definition of a NAME given to Jesus, into a statement that contradicts the Scriptures...... when I showed you MULTIPLE Scriptures that CLARIFY the meaning of "Immanuel".... makes me even MORE sure you are incorrect, and the Scriptures are not.
 
way 2 go

way 2 go

Well-known member
Dartman said:
Spoiler
John 8:31-59
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

They didn't understand Jesus.


34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

They didn't understand Jesus.


41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.



49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.
50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.
51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?

They didn't understand Jesus.


54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

They still didn't understand Jesus.

You are ignoring the rest of the context.

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?

They didn't understand Jesus.



They were furious because he told them they were "of your father the devil", they were rejecting that he was sent from God...... there are several elements to their anger ... but the bottom line is ..

They didn't understand Jesus.
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you say they didn't understand Joh 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires.
but they were furious because of it ,why if they didn't understand why were they furious?



Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad."
Joh 8:57 So the Jews said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?"
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."

they did not pickup rocks @ Joh 8:44
from what Jesus said in the above verses john 8:56,58
why do you think the Jews picked up rocks ?
 
genuineoriginal

genuineoriginal

New member
7djengo7 said:
Since, by "God", you mean "person", then, of course, were you to say "The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit are one God in three persons", you would be saying "The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit are one PERSON in three PERSONS". But, what does that have to do with Trinitarianism? Absolutely nothing.
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Trinitarianism is an insane doctrine, because it keeps claiming that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three persons/beings in one person/being.
 
glorydaz

glorydaz

Well-known member
genuineoriginal said:
Trinitarianism is an insane doctrine, because it keeps claiming that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three persons/beings in one person/being.
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It's insane to say you are composed of a body, soul, and spirit, too.

Or do you deny that as well?


You sure have to ignore a lot of the Bible to deny that the Holy Spirit is God.

or the Lord Jesus Christ is God.

or the Father is God.

or the Godhead does not fully contain all three.
 
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Dartman

Active member
way 2 go said:
you say they didn't understand Joh 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires.
but they were furious because of it ,why if they didn't understand why were they furious?
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Your statements aren't quite accurate.
I said they didn't understand the entire conversation. The statement that they were of their "father the Devil" seemed to increase their anger, but that was definitely not the ONLY part they didn't understand, of Jesus' discourse with them.


W2G said:
they did not pickup rocks @ Joh 8:44
from what Jesus said in the above verses john 8:56,58
why do you think the Jews picked up rocks ?
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Because they were infuriated by the entire exchange from Verse 31, and on.
 
genuineoriginal

genuineoriginal

New member
glorydaz said:
It's insane to say you are composed of a body, soul, and spirit, too.

Or do you deny that as well?
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Are you claiming that the Trinity is not three persons in one but is instead a body, soul, and a spirit?

glorydaz said:
You sure have to ignore a lot of the Bible to deny that ... the Father is God.
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Don't be stupid.
Nobody denies that the Father is God.

Galatians 1:1
1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead; )​


glorydaz said:
You sure have to ignore a lot of the Bible to deny that the Holy Spirit is God.
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There are no verses that claim that the Holy Spirit is God.

glorydaz said:
You sure have to ignore a lot of the Bible to deny that ... the Lord Jesus Christ is God.
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There are no verses that claim that Jesus is God, but you are ignoring all of the verses that claim that Jesus is the Son of God and that claim that God sent His Son Jesus to save us from our sins.

glorydaz said:
or the Godhead does not fully contain all three.
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There is nothing in the Bible that claims that there is a being named "Godhead" that contains three beings.
 
Tambora

Tambora

Get your armor ready!
LIFETIME MEMBER
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genuineoriginal said:
Trinitarianism is an insane doctrine, because it keeps claiming that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three persons/beings in one person/being.
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Nah.
It's saying that there are three distinct persons that make up a single unity (as in one single counsel - elohim).
It is why men as judges can also be referred to as elohim --- ie. a single unity counsel of men, not a single individual person.
 
way 2 go

way 2 go

Well-known member
Dartman said:
Your statements aren't quite accurate.
I said they didn't understand the entire conversation. The statement that they were of their "father the Devil" seemed to increase their anger, but that was definitely not the ONLY part they didn't understand, of Jesus' discourse with them.
Click to expand...


you say they didn't understand Joh 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires.
but they were furious because of it ,why if they didn't understand why were they furious?


Because they were infuriated by the entire exchange from Verse 31, and on.
Click to expand...

Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad."
Joh 8:57 So the Jews said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?"
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."


what was infuriating about from what Jesus said in the above verses john 8:56,58
why do you think the Jews picked up rocks then ?
 
C

clefty

New member
Idolater said:
Thank you. Do you identify as a Messianic Jew, or more Seventh Day Adventist, or something else?
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also fellowship with Church of God seventh day...sometimes Sundays for High Church fellowships...

But I identify more as a messianic than SDA...His name is of importance...as is His calendar its festivals as memorials...

Neither of these of course in order to gain salvation but to restore Him His ways...

And both of these frustrate SDA’s...

But the messianic groups are often Zionist...so well working it out...ha
 
D

Dartman

Active member
way 2 go said:
you say they didn't understand Joh 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires.
but they were furious because of it ,why if they didn't understand why were they furious?
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Because what they THOUGHT he meant, made them angry.
Tell us, why did they say Jesus was a Samaritan ... and "had a devil"?
 
way 2 go

way 2 go

Well-known member
Tambora said:
Good question.
Being a lunatic was not a stoning offense.
So one has to ask themself what was done or said that made it a stoning offense.
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Dartman says the Jews were furious but won't say why

& the one that makes me laugh is that Jesus said You are of your father the devil, but
Dartman claims the Jews didn't understand that but were furious .

giphy.gif
 
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