Jesus CANNOT be Jehovah/YHVH God

[clefty]

Matthew 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

John 16:2 They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. 3 They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me. 4 I have told you this, so that when their time comes you will remember that I warned you about them.

John 9:22 His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jews. For the Jews had already determined that anyone who confessed Jesus as the Christ would be put out of the synagogue.

John 7:13 Yet no one would speak publicly about Him for fear of the Jews.
John 12:42 Nevertheless, many of the leaders believed in Him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue.

John 12:9 Meanwhile a large crowd of Jews found out that Jesus was there and came, not only because of him but also to see Lazarus, whom he had raised from the dead. 10 So the chief priests made plans to kill Lazarus as well, 11 for on account of him many of the Jews were going over to Jesus and believing in him.

still didn’t see the part where the Law was no longer to be kept...

jews tried everything to stop their money changing racket from being removed

Oh and the idea that goyim were to receive and establish His laws...

The new law is written on the saved's heart and mind.

oh my...I don’t see NEW law either...I see NEW covenant when He puts His Law on hearts and minds but nothing about NEW law...

Do you have going to the temple on your heart and bringing animals to the priest?

that is the administration of the Law...not the Law itself

Do you have stoning adulterers written on your heart and mind?

that is the enforcement of the Law...or do you NOT have prohibitions of adultery written on your heart and mind...(seems obvious you don’t...seeing what you are doing to His Word and faith walk...but thought to ask)

Do you have taking someone's eye, or foot, or hand on your heart and mind?

again the enforcement of the Law...which again are for a Law still binding or are the reasons to enforce removed?

Do you really want to keep saying the saved have the old law written on their heart and mind, or the new law as given by Jesus?

Yahushua instructed DON’T think...and yet here you are thinking exactly that...

His Law is the same as His Father’s...why you divide His Father’s house between two laws?

Should Christians worship another god? A god who changes his laws whenever because they are not perfect?
Should Christians create an idol of a god who allows the children to change the house rules the times and laws because of an uncircumcised and rebellious stiffnecked carnal spirit?
Should Christians blaspheme His name taking it for nothing and acting less Like Him and more like the world?
How about dishonor parents, or murder or steal commit adultery or LIE (well obviously you think that) or covet?

Rev 14:12 is clear we are to keep what was given to Moses...Acts 6:13-24 proves that it was changed is FALSE WITNESS

Paul at NONE of his trials had NO JEW testify he lived out of the Law...or taught the Law was over. Paul at NONE of his trials had any epistle he had written presented as evidence he taught the Law was changed or abolished or replaced with a new one...Paul at ALL of his trials claimed innocence of those false charges that NO jew could prove...

Is why Heb 4:9 as gentiles WANTED to keep the Law...and kept crowding the synagogues on Sabbaths so much that jews LIED AND DECEIVED to slow them flooding in...these jews insisted they be circumcised first in hopes of running them off...but the OT LAW was consulated and it was found that circumcision was NEVER REQUIRED of the strangers living within their gates...back when the assembly was in the wilderness...so just as it was back then it was indeed ONE LAW for jew and goyim alike...

Only later did the wolves in sheep clothing and false teachers begin to have the European converts divorce themselves of thing suddenly “jewish”...but the first European was baptized in the river on a Sabbath...not antisemitic or racist or claiming raptured from works...

Imagine that...goyim believers WANTING to be IN HIM doing His Father’s will...His Way...

 

[Dartman]

Ah, then you don't need to use my initial if it's from the same post.

It really helps to separate when I quote from one of my previous quotes. I COULD just use the bracket/quote and leave off the initial ... but I find it less confusing when the quotes are Identified ... and less tedious than typing the entire name .... and some of the names are dishonest .... so I avoid using the name in that case.

 

[glorydaz]

It really helps to separate when I quote from one of my previous quotes. I COULD just use the bracket/quote and leave off the initial ... but I find it less confusing when the quotes are Identified ... and less tedious than typing the entire name .... and some of the names are dishonest .... so I avoid using the name in that case.

Then I guess I'll have to get used to it, and trust it's not being abused.

 

[way 2 go]

Nope. The croud MISUNDERSTOOD Jesus ....

It is OBVIOUS they didn't understand Jesus, and rejected him. Their testimony is not credible.

you didn't answer the question

why do you think the Jews picked up rocks ?



Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad."
Joh 8:57 So the Jews said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?"
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."

 

[Dartman]

you didn't answer the question

why do you think the Jews picked up rocks ?

I did answer the question. They picked up rocks to kill Jesus.
They wanted to kill him because they rejected his claim of being the son of God, and sent BY God.
John 10:36-39 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,

 

[aikido7]

It was part of the religious culture in Jesus’ day.
People picked up rocks to kill people and feel justified in their hatred and revenge fantasies.

 

[way 2 go]

I did answer the question. They picked up rocks to kill Jesus.
They wanted to kill him because they rejected his claim of being the son of God, and sent BY God.

John 10:36-39

I"m talking about these verses

Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad."
Joh 8:57 So the Jews said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?"
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."


from what Jesus said in the above verses john 8:56,58
why do you think the Jews picked up rocks ?

 

[way 2 go]

It was part of the religious culture in Jesus’ day.
People picked up rocks to kill people and feel justified in their hatred and revenge fantasies.

 

[Dartman]

I"m talking about these verses

Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad."
Joh 8:57 So the Jews said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?"
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."


from what Jesus said in the above verses john 8:56,58
why do you think the Jews picked up rocks ?

You are ignoring the rest of the context.
John 8:31-59
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

They didn't understand Jesus.


34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

They didn't understand Jesus.


41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

They didn't understand Jesus..


42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?

They didn't understand Jesus.


49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.
50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.
51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?

They didn't understand Jesus.


54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

They still didn't understand Jesus.

They were furious because he told them they were "of your father the devil", they were rejecting that he was sent from God...... there are several elements to their anger ... but the bottom line is ..

They didn't understand Jesus.

 

[7djengo7]

way 2 go wrote:

one God three persons

And, here is Dartman's brilliant reply to that:

Says no verse ever.

Let's see how that works out for Dartman, the hypocrite:

One God, ONLY ONE PERSON

Not only is that NEVER said in the Bible, anywhere, but it is also CONTRADICTED by the uniform testimony of the Bible.

Why, on my main page on TOL, in the chronological posting list under the "Quotes" tab, do I not see any of my barrage of recent posts in which I have quoted Dartman's posts? Is that, perhaps, a function of the "Ignore" feature on here? Might that mean that Dartman has used the "Ignore" feature against me? (I've never felt inclined to look into the "Ignore" feature, myself, so I don't know what it does, or how it works.) If so, that's A-OK in my book.

Guess what: Despite that (if, in fact, that is the case), I can nevertheless still read Dartman's Christ-blaspheming posts in these threads, and you can bet I'm going to continue, Lord willing, to trample them to small dust, when I have the time. :bowser:

Remember, now, that Dartman is the guy who said that Jesus, in His statement, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up", meant nothing more than that, AFTER Jesus had already been made alive inside the tomb of Joseph of Arimathaea (and THAT no thanks to Jesus' OWN power), He would then, literally, STAND UP, on His feet. In Dartman's demented thinking, Jesus' claim to raise up "the temple of His body" is literally no more than a claim that the now-alive-again body of Jesus, by His own, merely human ability, will go, from a position of lying down, horizontally, to standing up vertically! Perhaps such an ordinarily humdrum, generally taken-for-granted achievement as getting up out of bed in the morning is the highest thing to which Dartman, himself, has ever aspired, and pulled off, and so, in his hatred of God the Son, he desires to make Jesus Christ (Who quickeneth whom He will, and Whom Paul calls "a quickening spirit"!!) one like unto Dartman, and scarcely anything more. And, if that's really what Jesus meant by "I will raise it up", then, by "Destroy this temple", He must not have meant "Crucify Me", but instead, merely, "After I'm already dead, lay My dead body down flat".

 

[7djengo7]

Yes, Jesus IS before Abraham was, in Gen 3:15, and in Enoch's prophecies, and ALL the prophets between Creation and Abraham.

In John 8:58 KJV, Jesus said:

Before Abraham was, I AM.

He did NOT say:

Before Abraham was, I HAD BEEN PROPHESIED ABOUT.

What RATIONAL being would speak the words, "Before Abraham was, I am", hoping to convey by them, "Before Abraham was, I had already been prophesied about"? That's right! NO rational being would do that. And the Lord Jesus Christ, the Logos, certainly was NOT irrational!! But, as an hardened irrationalist, you persist in reviling Him by your affirmations.

Jesus came into literal existence hundreds of years after Jacob, and Moses....

This, your father (the devil) has taught you; you've certainly not learned it from Scripture. You've certainly not learned it from God the Father--you've certainly not learned it from YHWH. Now, suppose Jesus HAD already been existing, long before Abraham's time (which, in fact, He HAD BEEN!); what words, if not "Before Abraham was born, I am", should He have used, to convey that truth?

It seems that, according to you, Jesus was saying something along the lines of:

Before I was, I am.

OR

Before I am, I am.

OR

Before I am, I was.

I suppose, also, that, in accordance with your heretical dementia, Cyrus the Great (since he was prophesied about by Isaiah, nearly 150 years before he became the Persian monarch) can say:

Before Cambyses I was, I am.

and

Before Nebuchadnezzar was, I am.

And, John the Baptist (also prophesied by Isaiah, some 700 years before J the B's ministry) can say:

Before Zacharias and Elisabeth were, I am.

And, since John the Apostle, in his Epistles, prophesied about antichrists such as yourself, why, apparently you, too, can say:

Before Abraham Lincoln was, I am.

 

[chair]

It is possible that John had a different view of who or what Jesus was than the other gospels did.

 

[Dartman]

It is possible that John had a different view of who or what Jesus was than the other gospels did.

I don't think "possible" is the correct term .... it's too wide open.

I do NOT think it's reasonable to believe John would have a substantially different view of Jesus.... given what we see of John's writings, and the other apostles. And by virtue of their shared 3 1/2 years spent WITH Jesus.

 

[MennoSota]

Matthew 1:21-23
She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet: “Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel” (which means, God with us).
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.compellingtruth.org/amp/Immanuel-Jesus.html
Isaiah 9:1-7
But there will be no gloom for her who was in anguish. In the former time he brought into contempt the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the latter time he has made glorious the way of the sea, the land beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the nations. The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shone. You have multiplied the nation; you have increased its joy; they rejoice before you as with joy at the harvest, as they are glad when they divide the spoil. For the yoke of his burden, and the staff for his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, you have broken as on the day of Midian. For every boot of the tramping warrior in battle tumult and every garment rolled in blood will be burned as fuel for the fire. For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called

Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will do this.

 

[chair]

I don't think "possible" is the correct term .... it's too wide open.

I do NOT think it's reasonable to believe John would have a substantially different view of Jesus.... given what we see of John's writings, and the other apostles. And by virtue of their shared 3 1/2 years spent WITH Jesus.

Do Matthew, Luke or Mark make statements that obviously hint at Jesus being God? I see John quoted a lot here.

 

[Dartman]

Do Matthew, Luke or Mark make statements that obviously hint at Jesus being God? I see John quoted a lot here.

I do not believe ANY statements in scripture hint at Jesus being God .... other than in the same sense that ALL Kings of Israel are called "god"... and all judges of Israel are called "god".

Heb 1 is a classic example, which quotes Psa 45, which is written about ALL the Kings of Israel.

And Jesus quoted Psa 82 regarding the fact that the Scriptures state the judges of Israel are called "god", as Jesus corrected the false accusations of the Jews in John 10.

 

[Dartman]

Matthew 1:21-23
She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet: “Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel” (which means, God with us).

Gen 39:2-3 And Jehovah was with Joseph, and he was a prosperous man; and he was in the house of his master the Egyptian. 3 And his master saw that Jehovah was with him, and that Jehovah made all that he did to prosper in his hand.


1 Sam 3:19 And Samuel grew, and Jehovah was with him, and did let none of his words fall to the ground.


1 Sam 18:12 And Saul was afraid of David, because Jehovah was with him, and was departed from Saul.


1 Sam 18:14 And David behaved himself wisely in all his ways; and Jehovah was with him.


2 Sam 5:10 And David waxed greater and greater; for Jehovah, the God of hosts, was with him.


2 Kings 18:1,6,7 Now it came to pass in the third year of Hoshea son of Elah king of Israel, that Hezekiah the son of Ahaz king of Judah began to reign.


6 For he clave to Jehovah; he departed not from following him, but kept his commandments, which Jehovah commanded Moses.
7 And Jehovah was with him; whithersoever he went forth he prospered: and he rebelled against the king of Assyria, and served him not.


1 Chron 9:20 And Phinehas the son of Eleazar was ruler over them in time past, (and) Jehovah was with him.


2 Chron 1:1 And Solomon the son of David was strengthened in his kingdom, and Jehovah his God was with him, and magnified him exceedingly.




2 Chron 15:8-9 And when Asa heard these words, and the prophecy of Oded the prophet, he took courage, and put away the abominations out of all the land of Judah and Benjamin, and out of the cities which he had taken from the hill-country of Ephraim; and he renewed the altar of Jehovah, that was before the porch of Jehovah.
9 And he gathered all Judah and Benjamin, and them that sojourned with them out of Ephraim and Manasseh, and out of Simeon: for they fell to him out of Israel in abundance, when they saw that Jehovah his God was with him.


Luke 1:66-77 And all that heard them laid them up in their heart, saying, What then shall this child be? For the hand of the Lord was with him.
67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying,
68 Blessed (be) the Lord, the God of Israel; For he hath visited and wrought redemption for his people,
69 And hath raised up a horn of salvation for us In the house of his servant David
70 (As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets that have been from of old),
71 Salvation from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
72 To show mercy towards, our fathers, And to remember his holy covenant;
73 The oath which he spake unto Abraham our father,
74 To grant unto us that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies Should serve him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before him all our days.
76 Yea and thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Most High: For thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to make ready his ways;
77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people In the remission of their sins,


Acts 10:38 even Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Isaiah 9:1-7
But there will be no gloom for her who was in anguish. In the former time he brought into contempt the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the latter time he has made glorious the way of the sea, the land beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the nations. The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shone. You have multiplied the nation; you have increased its joy; they rejoice before you as with joy at the harvest, as they are glad when they divide the spoil. For the yoke of his burden, and the staff for his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, you have broken as on the day of Midian. For every boot of the tramping warrior in battle tumult and every garment rolled in blood will be burned as fuel for the fire. For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called

Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will do this.

Here is a better translation, based on Hebrew texts roughly 1500 years closer to the original documents than our OT.

For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and
his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and
health to him. His government shall be great, and of his peace there is no end: it shall be upon
the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to support it with judgment and
with righteousness, from henceforth and forever. The seal of the Lord of hosts shall perform
this.

 

[Idolater]

There have always been a remnant of His people that have kept the Sabbath...so it is not accurate to say that it is entirely modern...and neither do they mix elements of Judaism or jewish traditions...but seek to restore what was given to His people Israel...and the strangers within their gate...

Paul followed a sect considered heretical by jews called “the Way”...over time changes were made and Christianity took form...as europe sought to distance and divorce itself from the jews...changing both times and law

Thank you. Do you identify as a Messianic Jew, or more Seventh Day Adventist, or something else?

 

[Idolater]

It is possible that John had a different view of who or what Jesus was than the other gospels did.

Not according to the oldest Christian traditions, no. According to these traditions (Catholicism and Orthodoxy), all of the Apostles were in lockstep with each other regarding their teaching. And those documents included in the New Testament that were not written by Apostles themselves, according to the same oldest Christian traditions, are approved by the Apostles, and that's why they are Christian scriptures.

 

[Idolater]

Do Matthew, Luke or Mark make statements that obviously hint at Jesus being God? I see John quoted a lot here.

As [MENTION=20836]MennoSota[/MENTION] mentioned, Matthew 1:23 KJV is an obvious hint, imo. " ... they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."