Jesus CANNOT be Jehovah/YHVH God

[7djengo7]

I had stated that you deny that spirits are immaterial, and you replied:

Correct.

Let's be a little more specific. Do you deny that ALL spirits are immaterial, or do you say that SOME spirits are not immaterial, while OTHER spirits are immaterial?

You are confused again. What I stated is;
.. there are SEVERAL definitions for "spirit". It depends on the context. Most of the times, in Scripture "spirit" is discussing thinking, attitude. Some times "spirit" means breath. Some times spirit means a being with a message, a messenger.

So, again, would you say that ALL spirits are material, or would you say that only SOME spirits are material, while other spirits are immaterial?

Jesus' spirit is conformed to his God's spirit.

Would you say Jesus' spirit is material? Yes or No?
Would you say God the Father's spirit is material? Yes or No?

The holy spirit is God's spirit. God's thinking/mind and the power produced by God's mind.

Here, you are asserting three propositions:

1. "The holy spirit is...God's thinking"
2. "The holy spirit is...God's...mind"
3. "The holy spirit is...the power produced by God's mind"

So, please furnish the passage(s) of Scripture, respectively, wherein you imagine you learned each of these three things.

Notice, also, the absurdity of your third proposition, there: "The holy spirit is...the power produced by God's mind". You had just, in the previous (your second) proposition, stated that "The holy spirit is...God's...mind"; so, if that is the case then observe what happens when we interchange the phrase "the holy spirit" with the phrase "God's mind":

3. "The holy spirit is...the power produced by [the holy spirit]"

So, by your asinine claims, you've given us an infinite regress:

3. "The holy spirit is...the power produced by [the holy spirit [which is the power produced by the holy spirit [which is the power produced by the holy spirit [which is......]]]]"

Top notch, Dartman!

So, yes they think the same. The believer then must "learn" what Christ taught, in order to acquire Christ's spirit, which has been perfectly conformed to his God's spirit.

You say, here, that the believer will "acquire Christ's spirit". Is Christ's spirit material? Are you saying that the believer, in "acquiring Christ's spirit", is acquiring a material thing? Can you describe this acquisition?

Also, you said "So, yes they think the same." In this, I assume that, by "they", you mean God the Father and Jesus--so that you mean "So, yes [God the Father and Jesus] think the same." The question is, God the Father and Jesus think the same WHAT? And, of whatever it is to which you refer by your phrase "the same", would you say that it is a material thing? And, to the nearest lb., about how much would you say it weighs?

 

[clefty]

The Sabbath is a Saturday.

yes...comes after six days of work...not just resting about...but works...works by the sweat of your brow works...works done to glorify Yah...and then TGIF...that TGIF feeling you get on Fridaze? That feeling is your body’s way of telling you it wants a rest...a Sabbath rest as it was designed to do...

Sabbath made for man when he didnt even need it...made at creation...when Man’s first full day was a Sabbath...imagine that a rest given to Adam not even worked for...not worked for at all and yet what GRACE...given before poor Adam had to work by the sweat of his brow...

Yes that 24 hour day remains...everything else created was cursed except the Sabbath...the ground the animals man...woman...ALL CURSED...except the Sabbath...it remains HOLY SET ASIDE SANCTIFIED...

Yahushua provides rest...that seventh day SABBATH rest...

Yahushua Himself is NOT a calendar day...NOT a portion of time...

That Sabbath remains for His people Heb 4:9

Isaiah concludes his book...Sabbath to Sabbath ALL will worship...Is 66:23

Best to get used to His ways now...is what waits for us then...

Observing special days was a shadow of Jesus.

STOP IT...you lie...or Paul did...He is quite clear the shadows ARE present tense...they ARE of things to come...still to come...

Jesus has come and is light and there are no shadows in him.

you contradict yourself...Sabbath is a shadow...sabbaths are a rest...there is rest in Him...a sabbath rest...

There is light in the shadows you know...refreshingly less...restfully so...is why we rest in the shade...DUH

Observing special days is nothing when it comes to salvation.

doesnt earn it that is true but Sabbath is a sign given to those who are saved...His People...a forever sign...Ex 20:12, 31:13,17, Is 56:2, Ezekiel 20:20

His festivals, your sabbaths included, are forever too...a memorial to what He did...His calendar...His year begins in the spring...

His people accept Him HIS...

We are to observe Jesus all day every days.

good good...observe Him living as you are to do...and to follow Him...have the faith OF Him...not your own...

Yes observe Him instructing you to do all that is taught by customs of Moses unchanged...

Observe Him...Him keeping clean...celebrating festivals...keeping Sabbaths all as was His custom...

Then SEALING the new covenant...its first full day a Sabbath...just like it was for Adam in the Edenic covenant...its garden...neat eh?

Made in His image doesnt mean we just look like Him...but we live and behave and ARE more like Him...not less or like our former selves...before we repented...

Repenting we turn to Him...to walk as He did...following Him...HIS WAY...the Way as even Paul instructed we do...and worshipped the God of his fathers...

 

[aikido7]

According to Genesis, the Sabbath is so holy that even God has to observe it.

 

[Apple7]

John 9:35-38 35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? 36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? 37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. 38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.​

Jesus was worshiped as lord, not as God.

Same term is applied to worship of The Father....is The Father, Lord or God?

 

[Dartman]

Same term is applied to worship of The Father....is The Father, Lord or God?

You're missing the point. Jesus is NEVER worshiped AS GOD.

Ever.

Jesus' God, and my God, has commanded all men to honor His son. NOT, AS God, but as the Christ, our Lord, sent BY God.

 

[Dartman]

According to Genesis, the Sabbath is so holy that even God has to observe it.

Nope. God rested the 7th day ..... That's the reminder God intended, by commanding Israel to keep that day as their Sabbath.

 

[Choleric]

You're missing the point. Jesus is NEVER worshiped AS GOD.

Ever.

Jesus' God, and my God, has commanded all men to honor His son. NOT, AS God, but as the Christ, our Lord, sent BY God.

Isa 41:4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.


Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death

By simply comparing Scripture with Scripture, we see Jesus is Jehovah of the OT. You have to either get some "white out" and erase these passages from your bible, or believe them as written, in which case it is clear. Only one can be the First and the Last. That ONE is God Himself.

 

[clefty]

Nope. God rested the 7th day ..... That's the reminder God intended, by commanding Israel to keep that day as their Sabbath.

...Sabbath was made for MAN...long before Israel ever was...

You a man? You His people? Heb 4:9

 

[clefty]

According to Genesis, the Sabbath is so holy that even God has to observe it.

I wouldnt go that far...He doesnt have to He wants to...the Eternal restrained Himself...rested and was refreshed...a 24 hour period of time...He was not made Holy by it...He made Sabbath and then made it holy sanctified it...seperated it...

Is WHO He is...the One that rests after six days of work...we were made into that image...

He did not need the rest...we would...WHAT GRACE...

He did not need refreshment...we would...even His Son would...WHAT FORESHADOWING...that even He rose on it...

He did not need a memorial to remind Himself He made it all...we would...WHAT LOVE...

Sabbath was made for Man...Remember it...

Given prior the fall...the only commandment revealed BEFORE the fall...the only commandment given to goyim...

the only commandment He instructed prayers for that it would be kept long into the future...Matt 24:20...no prayers that we would be preserved from persecution...or RAPTURED even...no prayers that we NOT be persecuted but for HIS HOLY DAY...but that we not flee on the Sabbath as fleeing is NOT resting...

Yes it remains Holy...after the fall everything else created was cursed...the ground, the animals, mankind...but NOT the Sabbath...it remains Holy and set apart...for His people...Heb 4:9

Isaiah concluded his book with confirming that Sabbath to Sabbath ALL will worship...Is 66:23

Sabbath its sevens is uniquely stamped into math and nature...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/7

Seven colors

Seven notes

As waves are 1 h for every 7 long...

Seven directions

http://www.betemunah.org/seven.html

 

[Dartman]

Isa 41:4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.


Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death

By simply comparing Scripture with Scripture, we see Jesus is Jehovah of the OT. You have to either get some "white out" and erase these passages from your bible, or believe them as written, in which case it is clear. Only one can be the First and the Last. That ONE is God Himself.

You are apparently under the erroneous assumption that similar/same titles means the same individual.

Ezra 7:12 Artaxerxes, king of kings, unto Ezra the priest, a scribe of the law of the God of heaven, perfect peace, and at such a time.


Ezek 26:7 For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people.


Dan 2:37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.


Identical titles does NOT mean it's the same person.

So, now please deal with this issue;
Deut 18:17-18 And Jehovah said unto me, They have well said that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.


John 12:49-50 For I spake not from myself; but the Father that sent me, He hath given me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His commandment is life eternal: the things therefore which I speak, even as the Father hath said unto me, so I speak.


John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my words: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's who sent me.

It is impossible for Jesus to be "Jehovah" because Jesus is NOT the source of the words he spoke, his God is. His FATHER is Jehovah!

 

[Dartman]

...Sabbath was made for MAN...long before Israel ever was...

Verses please?

 

[aikido7]

Anti-Judah not anti-Semitic instead?

Christians were discovering near the time JOhn’s gsospel was written ssthat the normative Jews did not agree with their claims.
The Jesus people became anti-Semitic [or anti-Jew].

Today Jesus has become pro-war, anti-abortion and bigoted against blacks and gays.

Everybody is looking for a Jesus who agrees with them. Mark, Luke, Matthew and John did. So do we.

Each community of believers wanted a Jesus who would mean something to them. So they all fashioned their own redeemer.

 

[God's Truth]

yes...comes after six days of work...not just resting about...but works...works by the sweat of your brow works...works done to glorify Yah...and then TGIF...that TGIF feeling you get on Fridaze? That feeling is your body’s way of telling you it wants a rest...a Sabbath rest as it was designed to do...

That day could be a Wednesday. Do you really think that people should tell their boss when their days off should be?

Sabbath made for man when he didnt even need it...made at creation...when Man’s first full day was a Sabbath...imagine that a rest given to Adam not even worked for...not worked for at all and yet what GRACE...given before poor Adam had to work by the sweat of his brow...

It was a prophecy about Jesus.

Yes that 24 hour day remains...everything else created was cursed except the Sabbath...the ground the animals man...woman...ALL CURSED...except the Sabbath...it remains HOLY SET ASIDE SANCTIFIED...

Yahushua provides rest...that seventh day SABBATH rest...

Yahushua Himself is NOT a calendar day...NOT a portion of time...

That Sabbath remains for His people Heb 4:9

Isaiah concludes his book...Sabbath to Sabbath ALL will worship...Is 66:23

Best to get used to His ways now...is what waits for us then...


STOP IT...you lie...or Paul did...He is quite clear the shadows ARE present tense...they ARE of things to come...still to come...

you contradict yourself...Sabbath is a shadow...sabbaths are a rest...there is rest in Him...a sabbath rest...

There is light in the shadows you know...refreshingly less...restfully so...is why we rest in the shade...DUH

doesnt earn it that is true but Sabbath is a sign given to those who are saved...His People...a forever sign...Ex 20:12, 31:13,17, Is 56:2, Ezekiel 20:20

His festivals, your sabbaths included, are forever too...a memorial to what He did...His calendar...His year begins in the spring...

His people accept Him HIS...


good good...observe Him living as you are to do...and to follow Him...have the faith OF Him...not your own...

Yes observe Him instructing you to do all that is taught by customs of Moses unchanged...

Observe Him...Him keeping clean...celebrating festivals...keeping Sabbaths all as was His custom...

Then SEALING the new covenant...its first full day a Sabbath...just like it was for Adam in the Edenic covenant...its garden...neat eh?

Made in His image doesnt mean we just look like Him...but we live and behave and ARE more like Him...not less or like our former selves...before we repented...

Repenting we turn to Him...to walk as He did...following Him...HIS WAY...the Way as even Paul instructed we do...and worshipped the God of his fathers...

Observing special days is now worthless when it comes to salvation.

 

[God's Truth]

Sure, just like every verse of the Bible is "speaking to anyone, and everyone, and whosoever, and all."

But that's not what we were talking about.
WE were talking about proper interpretation of CONTEXT, by observing these points; To whom is this being spoken, What is the topic, Who is speaking, etc.
In the context of John 13-16, Jesus is talking to the apostles directly. Jesus' statements regarding his COMMANDMENTS utterly disproves your theory about "Law" in the NT.

What do you think you have disproved and proved?

 

[God's Truth]

Of course it is.

Correct! The Bible says this ALSO.

You said we only receive Jesus by our thoughts when we are transformed like him. You are wrong. We receive the Spirit of Jesus when he saves us.

 

[God's Truth]

He was the only one born of a virgin. You can argue Adam is uniquely begotten, but he isn't born of a virgin.

I was trying to figure out Genuine Originals beliefs about when he believes Jesus was begotten. He believes as I do that Jesus was in heaven before coming to earth.

 

[clefty]

Verses please?

“I change not”

https://wake-up.org/sabbath/seventh-day-sabbath-observed.html

Why do we pray “On earth as it is in heaven”?

Hebrews 8:1-5 ...'Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: Who serve unto THE EXAMPLE AND SHADOW OF HEAVENLY THINGS, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make ALL THINGS according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.'

Hebrews 9:24 ...'For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the FIGURES OF THE TRUE; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us.'

Revelation 11:19 ...'And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple THE ARK OF HIS TESTAMENT: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.'

You think the Almighty One has a separate Law in His kingdom? Dividing His House?

The commandments are His Character...His eternal Character...

Hope that adds to the scope power and majesty of “Lord of the Sabbath”

The Son begotten became the Lord of the Sabbath...

 

[clefty]

That day could be a Wednesday.

could be any day you want...in your lawless world of anything goes...you do whatever...not a qualification or value a potential employer appreciates...

Do you really think that people should tell their boss when their days off should be?

sure... employers appreciate discipline and resolve knowing that in hiring a man concerned with pleasing his Maker he will hire a man who does not steal company money property or time...a man respectful of order and heirarchy and policy...sometimes work must be made up during the week but life is a negotiation...but some things are not compromised...brings a sense of clarity to that negotiation

It was a prophecy about Jesus.

still is...His sabbatismos is a joy and delight...healing even

Observing special days is now worthless when it comes to salvation.

worth much much more than your Christ’smass, New Years, or Easter,or valentines or Halloween...or “St” Patrick’s Day...(Himself a sabbath keeper BTW)

But only to those who are saved...His people...those included in the ALL of Is 66:23

Zechariah 14:16
And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

Maybe you won’t show up?

 

[Choleric]

You are apparently under the erroneous assumption that similar/same titles means the same individual.

Ezra 7:12 Artaxerxes, king of kings, unto Ezra the priest, a scribe of the law of the God of heaven, perfect peace, and at such a time.


Ezek 26:7 For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people.


Dan 2:37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.


Identical titles does NOT mean it's the same person.

So, now please deal with this issue;
Deut 18:17-18 And Jehovah said unto me, They have well said that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.


John 12:49-50 For I spake not from myself; but the Father that sent me, He hath given me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His commandment is life eternal: the things therefore which I speak, even as the Father hath said unto me, so I speak.


John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my words: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's who sent me.

It is impossible for Jesus to be "Jehovah" because Jesus is NOT the source of the words he spoke, his God is. His FATHER is Jehovah!

I am under the asumption that only one person can be the "FIRST AND THE LAST", only one person can be "ALPHA AND OMEGA". That person in the old testament is Jehovah and in Revelation He was dead and is alive. They are the same person, they are the triune God.

If you disagree, don't tell me how two people can be governor, or two people can be stewardess, we know people can have the same title. But in Scripture, the "FIRST AND LAST" is always God. If you disagree, don't give me non-related, anti-trinitarian "proof texts" that you guys misinterpret, instead, please deal with the verses I quoted and show me:

-how two different people can be first and last,
-or show me how the person speaking in Revelation is not Jesus
-or show me somewhere in Scripture where someone other than God is called "first and last"

You cannot do either of the three, so you will ignore it with ad hominem and skip to an out of context verse instead.

 

[Dartman]

What do you think you have disproved and proved?

I disproved your claim that the NT doesn't have Law.
I proved Jesus told his apostles to keep his commandments.
I will ADD that Jesus commanded his apostles to teach the nations his commandments!