Is the New Covenant for non Jews?

[Jerry Shugart]

Does not God still have a covenant with the nation of Israel? Would a new covenant replace or add to that?

Israel's covenant relationship with Israel is now in abeyance:

"For if their having been cast aside has carried with it the reconciliation of the world, what will their being accepted again be but Life out of death?" (Ro.11:15).​

The words "cast aside" here are translated from the Greek word apobole, and a form of that word (apoballo) is translated "throwing aside" in the following verse:

"And throwing aside his garment, he rose and came to Jesus" (Mk.10:50).​

A blind man named Bartimaeus was sitting and begging in Jericho when the Lord Jesus entered that city. Bartimaeus cried out, saying, "Jesus, Thou Son of David, have mercy on me" (v.48). The crowd told him to stand up because Jesus was calling him. This motivated him to "throw aside" his outer cloak which was spread out before him to collect alms and to rise and to come to the Lord.

Bartimaeus did not "cast away" his garment, but instead he cast it aside in order to facilitate his movement of rising. And the same is true in regard to the Lord and national Israel. Since they would not come to the Lord Jesus in faith He would temporarily cast aside Israel as his agent in order to bring the truth of God to the Gentiles by Paul.

And that explains the following verses directed at the Gentile believers:

"For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief" (Ro.11:30).​

Due to the unbelief of national Israel Paul was made the "apostle to the Gentiles" and his preaching the "gospel of grace" to the Gentiles resulted in their "obtaining mercy".

 

[Jerry Shugart]

lol...most narcissists in a relationship with themselves think themselves special...

So you must think that Moses was a narciccist who was in error when he said the following about the children of Israel:

"For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth" (Deut.7:6).​

I listed multiple texts that showed gentiles were even under the old law..

The laws which you listed were the laws given by the Lord Jesus and not those given by Moses. Why do you refuse to believe that the Gentiles have not the law given by Moses despite the words of Paul in the following verse?:

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves" (Ro.2:14).​

 

[john w]

I don't see anything about a delayed inauguration in those first 3 passages you mentioned.

So, you think the sign that the New Covenant has been established is that all Israel will be saved?

All Israel is saved.

Yeh, sure-this has happened:
There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 for this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.



Thanks for checking in, Sgt. Schultz-you are dismissed.

 

[john w]

True yes - that is the ultimate result.

And now "heirs together with Israel."

Why are you lying? No ms. has "with Israel" in it.


What is your motivation, for lying, Sgt. Schultz?

 

[clefty]

So you must think that Moses was a narciccist who was in error when he said the following about the children of Israel:

"For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth" (Deut.7:6).​

I have no problem with what Moses said. I was making light of what you posted:

but when Israel was in covenant relationship with the children of Israel they were a special people

You make it about Israel so much you just focus on that and well...not on the One who made the covenant with her...

She of course said “I DO” to this marriage but was so unfaithful she was put away...finally as a last ditch effort the husband came personally to show what was expected of a faithful dutiful obedient wife and well SHE KILLED HIM...and thus until death does them part...that contract was torn up...never again made to seed or specific genetic descendants of a prior promise...

The Husband was resurrected and now looks for another wife...has the same taste in woman actually...faithful loyal obedient to same preferences of the Husband...those preferences have not changed

The laws which you listed

which ones?

were the laws given by the Lord Jesus

be specific and who did He give them to?

and not those given by Moses.

Moses merely handed down laws given to him...they are actually NEVER HIS...and as I showed with multiple texts GOYIM were given the same laws...ONE LAW for both native and stranger...

Why do you refuse to believe that the Gentiles have not the law given by Moses despite the words of Paul in the following verse?:

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves" (Ro.2:14).​

They dont have the law and yet do it? Believe it or not there is a Pygmy out there that feels stealing is wrong...without having read the Bible...and will be judged...

Just like verse 12 many have sinned without the law and will perish without law...so Pygmies that steal will also be judged and sentenced though not having the law...

But as Paul affirms WE ESTABLISH LAW...how? By preaching the gospel to ALL NATIONS...even the Pygmies...or ESPECIALLY those that don’t know

Now the Pygmy knows why he is doing good and that he will be rewarded for his good works by His Creator...etc et al

So again the goyim were ALWAYS welcome into the covenant with Him as His house was a house of prayer for ALL NATIONS...now after the DBR even more so...as we are His temple...new bride...faithful and obedient TO HIS PREFERENCES...the Husband’s...not our own...

 

[Crucifer]

But not biblically correct.

It is. The Jews got everything they were promised.
If you still think the Jews are God's chosen, then go be a Jew.

 

[Jacob]

Israel's covenant relationship with Israel is now in abeyance:

"For if their having been cast aside has carried with it the reconciliation of the world, what will their being accepted again be but Life out of death?" (Ro.11:15).​

The words "cast aside" here are translated from the Greek word apobole, and a form of that word (apoballo) is translated "throwing aside" in the following verse:

"And throwing aside his garment, he rose and came to Jesus" (Mk.10:50).​

A blind man named Bartimaeus was sitting and begging in Jericho when the Lord Jesus entered that city. Bartimaeus cried out, saying, "Jesus, Thou Son of David, have mercy on me" (v.48). The crowd told him to stand up because Jesus was calling him. This motivated him to "throw aside" his outer cloak which was spread out before him to collect alms and to rise and to come to the Lord.

Bartimaeus did not "cast away" his garment, but instead he cast it aside in order to facilitate his movement of rising. And the same is true in regard to the Lord and national Israel. Since they would not come to the Lord Jesus in faith He would temporarily cast aside Israel as his agent in order to bring the truth of God to the Gentiles by Paul.

And that explains the following verses directed at the Gentile believers:

"For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief" (Ro.11:30).​

Due to the unbelief of national Israel Paul was made the "apostle to the Gentiles" and his preaching the "gospel of grace" to the Gentiles resulted in their "obtaining mercy".

What do you mean by saying that, Israel's covenant relationship with Israel is now in abeyance? Are you referring to the old covenant or the new covenant? It is my belief that the new covenant came to Israel almost two thousand years ago.

 

[JudgeRightly]

It is. The Jews got everything they were promised.

So the Jews have the twelve Apostles ruling over them on twelve thrones?

Jesus has come to reign over the Jews?

They own the entirety of the land promised to them?

:think:

I could bring up other things that they were promised, but that they haven't received yet.

So maybe you should rethink your position.

If you still think the Jews are God's chosen, then go be a Jew.

Crucifer, is God done with the Jews for ever? Has He cast them away?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

She of course said “I DO” to this marriage but was so unfaithful she was put away...finally as a last ditch effort the husband came personally to show what was expected of a faithful dutiful obedient wife and well SHE KILLED HIM...and thus until death does them part...that contract was torn up...never again made to seed or specific genetic descendants of a prior promise...

According to your ideas Israel has been cast away but that is not what Paul said. In the end of the tenth chapter of Romans and the beginning of the eleventh chapter Paul states:

"But to Israel He saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid" (Ro.10:21; 11:1).​

In this passage when Paul speaks of Israel it is obvious that it is Israel which is made up of the physical descendants of Jacob which is in view: "All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people."

Paul is quoting from the OT so his reference to "Israel" at Romans 10:21 must be the Israel which had its beginning in the OT. Here is the verse which he quoted:

"I have stretched forth my hands all day to a disobedient and gainsaying people, to them that walked in a way that was not good, but after their sins. This is the people that provokes me continually in my presence; they offer sacrifices in gardens, and burn incense on bricks to devils, which exist not" (Isa.65:2-3; LXX).​

At Romans 11:1 the Greek word oun is translated "then" and that word is a conjuction which serves to "subjoin questions suggested by what has just been said" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

So when Paul asks, "Hath God cast away His people" the words "His people" are referring back to the people of whom he just wrote about, the Israel he describes as being "a disobedient and gainsaying people."

So when Paul asked, "Hath God cast away His people" he was asking if the nation of Israel that had its beginning in the OT had been cast away.

And what he says next makes it plain that God has not cast away the Israel of the OT:

"God forbid."

Your theology directly contradicts what Paul wrote.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

What do you mean by saying that, Israel's covenant relationship with Israel is now in abeyance? Are you referring to the old covenant or the new covenant? It is my belief that the new covenant came to Israel almost two thousand years ago.

So it is your belief that two thousand years ago all those of the house of Judah and of the house of Israel knew the LORD and had their sins forgiven?:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).​

According to this prophecy the "fathers" of those of the house of Israel and the house of Judah who will all have their sins forgiven were the Jews who broke the LORD's covenant so the "fathers" are the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Since the "fathers" of those who will have their sins forgiven were the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob then that can only mean that those of the houses of Judah and Israel will also be the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

There has never been a time in history when all of the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob belonging to the house of Judah and house of Israel had their sins forgiven.

 

[Jacob]

So it is your belief that two thousand years ago all those of the house of Judah and of the house of Israel knew the LORD and had their sins forgiven?:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).​

According to this prophecy the "fathers" of those of the house of Israel and the house of Judah who will all have their sins forgiven were the Jews who broke the LORD's covenant so the "fathers" are the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Since the "fathers" of those who will have their sins forgiven were the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob then that can only mean that those of the houses of Judah and Israel will also be the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

There has never been a time in history when all of the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob belonging to the house of Judah and house of Israel had their sins forgiven.

When Jesus of the house of Judah God's Son died, yes. Tribes in Israel at the time include people from both the north and the south, Judah Benjamin Levi Asher and are there other tribes mentioned? If not then then you would have an argument. So it is interesting to open this up for discussion. I used to think that only those from the southern kingdom, Judah, had returned to the land, and these from Babylon.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The Jews got everything they were promised.

What about this "land" promise of God under the Davidic covenant:

"Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David...I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime" (2 Sam.7:8,10).​

There has never been a time when Israel was brought back to their promised land and remained there at a time when they were not afflicted by their enemies. Besides that. the LORD said that He would keep the promise He made to David and wouldn't alter His promise:

"I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant...Nevertheless my loving-kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David" (Ps.89:3,33-35).​

Your theology makes the LORD a liar!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

When Jesus of the house of Judah God's Son died, yes.

You are totally confused. At the time when the Lord Jesus died not all of those of the house of Judah and of the house of Israel had their sins forgiven and knew the LORD.

 

[musterion]

If you still think the Jews are God's chosen

I smell some replacement theology there from a Jew who ain't you!

 

[Jacob]

You are totally confused. At the time when the Lord Jesus died not all of those of the house of Judah and of the house of Israel had their sins forgiven and knew the LORD.

They were in the land. I don't see how they didn't. Those who rejected don't matter. This may be about the work of Messiah, and His work was glorious.

 

[clefty]

According to your ideas Israel has been cast away but that is not what Paul said. In the end of the tenth chapter of Romans and the beginning of the eleventh chapter Paul states:

"But to Israel He saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid" (Ro.10:21; 11:1).​

In this passage when Paul speaks of Israel it is obvious that it is Israel which is made up of the physical descendants of Jacob which is in view: "All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people."

Paul is quoting from the OT so his reference to "Israel" at Romans 10:21 must be the Israel which had its beginning in the OT. Here is the verse which he quoted:

"I have stretched forth my hands all day to a disobedient and gainsaying people, to them that walked in a way that was not good, but after their sins. This is the people that provokes me continually in my presence; they offer sacrifices in gardens, and burn incense on bricks to devils, which exist not" (Isa.65:2-3; LXX).​

At Romans 11:1 the Greek word oun is translated "then" and that word is a conjuction which serves to "subjoin questions suggested by what has just been said" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

So when Paul asks, "Hath God cast away His people" the words "His people" are referring back to the people of whom he just wrote about, the Israel he describes as being "a disobedient and gainsaying people."

So when Paul asked, "Hath God cast away His people" he was asking if the nation of Israel that had its beginning in the OT had been cast away.

And what he says next makes it plain that God has not cast away the Israel of the OT:

"God forbid."

Your theology directly contradicts what Paul wrote.

Ummm...the wife/the people were “put away” and finally the marriage contract was abolished when they killed the husband...got it? Covenant was abolished NOT ITS LAW nor its PEOPLE...

any of those which still exist and wish to enter a new marriage covenant that He personally signed with His blood and SEALED with His death are free to do so...that new covenant was christened with a toast to a room full of jews who obviously are NOT cast away...

They said “I DO”...(BTW even after the BDR the disciples thought the new marriage was about a glorious kingdom of Israel triumphant...they STILL needed a little more understanding to the SPIRITUAL ISRAEL this marriage was about...a salvation from SIN not just earthly powers and promised lands...they finally got it...)

And in the NEW MARRIAGE CONTRACT...the Husband’s likes and dislikes and expectations and pleasures are hardly changed...His new bride will be faithful and obedient replacing the one prior...

Oh yes yes relax MANY people from His former people will be happy to “I DO” the new Husband since the Husband’s expectations are so similar as the prior...

In fact 3000 from His prior people said “I DO” to the new marriage that first Pentecost STILL OBSERVED as these terms remain from the prior contract as shadows to HIM the new Bridegroom...and by chapter 21 MYRIAD of jews I mean thousands of jews said “I DO” and remained ZEALOUS for the LAW as they knew what this Husband was pleased with and expected...

so zealous were they to please Him they were concerned that Paul was altering and false advertising His “likes” page...Paul took a vow to show he wasn’t and so the Husband continues to seek His Bride which is a new creature from jews+gentile and made ONE sovereign citizen of Israel out of them...a new bride...just like ONE LAW FOR NATIVE AND NON NATIVE ALIKE...ironic no?

Yup no people were cast away in the making of this gospel...except those that rejected Him His way...

Just like Jacob to Israel was a spiritual event...so is gentile to Israel or believing jew to Israel...

Just not jew who is not jew to non believing political Israel...that’s an abomination of desolation which stands in a holy place...between the temples in MAD Zionist heads ...LOL

 

[musterion]

Ummm...the wife/the people were “put away” and finally the marriage contract was abolished when they killed the husband...got it? Covenant was abolished NOT ITS LAW nor its PEOPLE...

any of those which still exist and wish to enter a new marriage covenant that He personally signed with His blood and SEALED with His death are free to do so...that new covenant was christened with a toast to a room full of jews who obviously are NOT cast away...

They said “I DO”...(BTW even after the BDR the disciples thought the new marriage was about a glorious kingdom of Israel triumphant...they STILL needed a little more understanding to the SPIRITUAL ISRAEL this marriage was about...a salvation from SIN not just earthly powers and promised lands...they finally got it...)

And in the NEW MARRIAGE CONTRACT...the Husband’s likes and dislikes and expectations and pleasures are hardly changed...His new bride will be faithful and obedient replacing the one prior...

Oh yes yes relax MANY people from His former people will be happy to “I DO” the new Husband since the Husband’s expectations are so similar as the prior...

In fact 3000 from His prior people said “I DO” to the new marriage that first Pentecost STILL OBSERVED as these terms remain from the prior contract as shadows to HIM the new Bridegroom...and by chapter 21 MYRIAD of jews I mean thousands of jews said “I DO” and remained ZEALOUS for the LAW as they knew what this Husband was pleased with and expected...

so zealous were they to please Him they were concerned that Paul was altering and false advertising His “likes” page...Paul took a vow to show he wasn’t and so the Husband continues to seek His Bride which is a new creature from jews+gentile and made ONE sovereign citizen of Israel out of them...a new bride...just like ONE LAW FOR NATIVE AND NON NATIVE ALIKE...ironic no?

Yup no people were cast away in the making of this gospel...except those that rejected Him His way...

Just like Jacob to Israel was a spiritual event...so is gentile to Israel or believing jew to Israel...

Just not jew who is not jew to non believing political Israel...that’s an abomination of desolation which stands in a holy place...between the temples in MAD Zionist heads ...LOL

No Jew you!

Jacob neither.

 

[Jacob]

No Jew you!

Jacob neither.

I do not know why you say this of me.

 

[musterion]

I do not know why you say this of me.

Say what? I don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Jacob]

Say what? I don't know what you're talking about.

Are you talking of a different Jacob?