Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
Zeke
Well-known member
No, if your doctrine is really what you believe then the risk for your child being saved or not, isn't worth taking that chance.
Its your doctrine godrulz so don't huff and puff when someone points outs how illogical it is.
To speak of the Sanctity of life and then teach the absurd concept called hell, is a double minded oxymoronic position.
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I'm familiar with Koine Greek, Kione sounds cool.
Aimiel
Well-known member
God doesn't ask that we edit His Word or think what we want with no regard for what He says is Truth. He wants us to take Him at His Word, which is the only reason He gives us His Word and not His appearance. Were we able to always see Him as angels do, we'd be judged the first time we sin. Since we walk in darkness, we have to cling to what Light we do have (His Word and His Body) and obey Him, not our own 'image' of who and what He might be according to our thoughts: which is only an idol.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Still problems......
Still problems......
But the nature of this 'spiritual death' is unclear. If it means an eternal seperation from 'God' or a punishment or result of sin that effects an 'eternal conscious torment'...this is problematic as we've covered previously. Consequences for sin are produced as one sins, and 'proportionate' to that sin, affecting its results...per the law of karma (what one sows, that also he reaps).....measure for measure. The law works out perfectly/fairly...while souls as long as they are able and capable...can repent and come back into union with God and his laws, expiating their sins, making reparation, abiding in the higher law of love. You'd have to prove that a soul CANNOT REPENT...and is somehow 'stuck' in a sinful state for all eternity. Furthermore, as shared earlier,...LOVE would never condemn a soul to an eternity of punishment to no end. Such a 'belief' is insane.
Beyond the theological assumptions however, it could be that physical death is part of the natural process of life here in this realm of conditional existence. Souls are born, die and are reborn according to the laws of Nature, - they continue on in the spirit-world, or may re-embody on physical worlds (resurrection or reincarnation) to further their learning. With this Spiritualist view, the journey of souls continues on naturally while much of the traditional-orthodox theology complicates things. ECT is just an old archaic assumption, while the law of karma, and principles of divine justice, mercy, love and wisdom....govern and perfectly mediates the salvation of all souls (or their termination, if such is possible and lawful).
As long as souls are conscious and free to any degree...they can make their existence a 'heaven' or a 'hell' as much as its in their power to experience such conditions of existence, by the power of choice. And as Love's eternal will is for the salvation, happiness and liberation of its beloved....Love will always be availing itself towards any soul that has turned from it, wooing that soul back itself, for such is Love's nature. The only way this would be arrested, is if a soul has reached a 'point of no return' (assuming that such a state could be held for all eternity 'consciously') or if its embrace of iniquity has effected a final and permenant death of existence (termination of personality). - in this case 'God' would appear to be powerless in resurrecting such souls. - in the latter case if a soul dies an eternal death,...there is no ECT or the problem of how souls could consciously choose eternal punishment upon themselves. - a soul that is dis-integrated cannot suffer for all eternity.
pj
Still problems......
But the nature of this 'spiritual death' is unclear. If it means an eternal seperation from 'God' or a punishment or result of sin that effects an 'eternal conscious torment'...this is problematic as we've covered previously. Consequences for sin are produced as one sins, and 'proportionate' to that sin, affecting its results...per the law of karma (what one sows, that also he reaps).....measure for measure. The law works out perfectly/fairly...while souls as long as they are able and capable...can repent and come back into union with God and his laws, expiating their sins, making reparation, abiding in the higher law of love. You'd have to prove that a soul CANNOT REPENT...and is somehow 'stuck' in a sinful state for all eternity. Furthermore, as shared earlier,...LOVE would never condemn a soul to an eternity of punishment to no end. Such a 'belief' is insane.
Beyond the theological assumptions however, it could be that physical death is part of the natural process of life here in this realm of conditional existence. Souls are born, die and are reborn according to the laws of Nature, - they continue on in the spirit-world, or may re-embody on physical worlds (resurrection or reincarnation) to further their learning. With this Spiritualist view, the journey of souls continues on naturally while much of the traditional-orthodox theology complicates things. ECT is just an old archaic assumption, while the law of karma, and principles of divine justice, mercy, love and wisdom....govern and perfectly mediates the salvation of all souls (or their termination, if such is possible and lawful).
As long as souls are conscious and free to any degree...they can make their existence a 'heaven' or a 'hell' as much as its in their power to experience such conditions of existence, by the power of choice. And as Love's eternal will is for the salvation, happiness and liberation of its beloved....Love will always be availing itself towards any soul that has turned from it, wooing that soul back itself, for such is Love's nature. The only way this would be arrested, is if a soul has reached a 'point of no return' (assuming that such a state could be held for all eternity 'consciously') or if its embrace of iniquity has effected a final and permenant death of existence (termination of personality). - in this case 'God' would appear to be powerless in resurrecting such souls. - in the latter case if a soul dies an eternal death,...there is no ECT or the problem of how souls could consciously choose eternal punishment upon themselves. - a soul that is dis-integrated cannot suffer for all eternity.
pj
Doormat
New member
At what age did you "effectually die?"
If you are addressing me then you should use my name.
If you were not blinded by King James translaters who were cautious about offending the church of the time then you might learn something.
So called Christian orthodoxy is mostly Roman Catholic initiated.
If ECT is correct then you should give the verses which actually say so and deal with the verses which do not say so.
You are only proving so far that you have no depth in your beliefs.
LA
Gods word is not one or two verses screwed around by people who have no or little understanding of Gods character.
I might add that the Greeks used their own Greek Bible NT from the beginning before the RCC and others got hold of it.
LA
StanJ53
New member
StanJ53
New member
opcorn:
Zeke
Well-known member
Like it or not even you much must bow to Romans 11:32-33, which leaves alot of room for ponderance on the all being part of the whole, what a shame that God could do such a thing in the minds of his so called followers.
StanJ53
New member
One verse does NOT a doctrine make. Heb 9:27, we ALL die at least once.
The issue you are trying to equivocate on is death. Death relates ONLY to the body, NOT the soul/spirit. As Revelation tells us the judgment will take place after certain things happen, and that will still be sometime in the future, as it now stands. It will take place AFTER Jesus returns. At that moment Christians will be raised imperishable, and those alive will be transformed. That will be the first resurrection. Then unbelievers will be raised to be judged and thrown into the lake of fire, where their bodies again will be destroyed. That will be the second resurrection and second death. It's all there in Revelation.
StanJ53
New member
Aimiel
Well-known member
Atemporal means without relation to time or timeless. I do agree, since time applies to temporal beings and not those in the spirit realm.
It should be noted the doctrine of ECT doesn't pop up until Aquinas. It isn't believed by any of the old denominations, Eastern, coptic, nestorian, Latin catholic. It makes Trinity even less perfect. There is no reason to reform something that deserves an ECT. But there is nothing in annihilationism either. The wicked have to be reformed, because they can be.
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Grammar much?
Doormat
New member
That doesn't help me understand what he means by atemporal punishment. Do you believe the punishment in "Hell" is atemporal? If so, explain what you mean by that.