Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
IMJerusha
New member
"Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them. For such men are slaves not of our Lord Christ but of their own appetites; and by their smooth and flattering speech they deceive the hearts of the unsuspecting."
Yeshua said, “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” I will stick with what Yeshua said.
IMJerusha
New member
StanJ53
New member
ALL your arguments are NOT based on the Bible or God being the ultimate arbitrator of love and justice. It is based on your own concept of these laws, and what YOU accept. YOU are NOT the final arbitrator. God IS.
It is based on what you have attested to on this thread and the fact that you admit you are NOT a Christian. That you think your intellect is greater than God or His Word shows your true nature. That you actually would condemn God who is the reason you exist.
God is love. God is justice. God is EVERYTHING. That you use words like pain and suffering as synonyms for torment shows your own lack of understanding. Torment in the Biblical sense is self inflicted due to people NOT obeying God and finding out the truth afterwards. We ALL reap what WE sow. God makes the rules and we obey or break them. Sounds like you grew up without realizing any repercussions to your actions.
You only look at God as one attribute that is subject to your acceptance of what that attribute should be. God is more than you understand now or could possibly ever understand. His justice and rule of His laws are all of equal importance. If Jesus said unbelievers will suffer eternal punishment, then they will. Your acceptance nor belief changes NOTHING.
StanJ53
New member
Effectually. ( I suggest you look up the meaning of the word )
The lack of animation in the body. ( no more life )
IMJerusha
New member
"And the LORD said to him, 'Go through the city, through Jerusalem, and put a mark upon the foreheads of the men who sigh and groan over all the abominations that are committed in it.' And to the others he said in my hearing, 'Pass through the city after him, and smite; your eye shall not spare, and you shall show no pity; slay old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women, but touch no one upon whom is the mark. And begin at my sanctuary.' So they began with the elders who were before the house. Then he said to them, 'Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain. Go forth.' So they went forth, and smote in the city. And while they were smiting, and I was left alone, I fell upon my face, and cried, 'Ah Lord GOD! Wilt thou destroy all that remains of Israel in the outpouring of thy wrath upon Jerusalem?' "Then he (God) said to me, 'The guilt of the house of Israel and Judah is exceedingly great; the land is full of blood, and the city full of injustice; for they say, 'The LORD has forsaken the land, and the LORD does not see' As for me, my eye will not spare, nor will I have pity, but I will requite their deeds upon their heads.' "
Our God is also a God of wrath. I don't think we should forget that.
Doormat
New member
Irrelevant to my point, but see Romans 13:1-6 to learn that you are mistaken again (assuming you believe Ro 13:1-6 is truth).
Then answer Timotheos' question using God's law. Moses wasn't sure what to do with the man who was gathering wood on the sabbath. God said to stone the man to death. Was that punishment? Of course it was. So Timotheos' point is made.
You are mistaken. Consider reviewing the story of Lamech and the Mosaic law regarding justifiable homicide, cities of refuge, etc.
See cognitive dissonance.
So? How does that mean He is judging them when He stated that He did not come to judge them, and when He explained exactly what would judge them in the end? And why do you ignore that the Saints will judge the world? :idunno:
Annihilation. How do you interpret that to mean ECT? Some here have already boxed themselves into a corner by denying it's literal fire.
Assuming you believe Jesus is Lord, consider what He said and reconcile it with what the author of Hebrews wrote, else you have a paradox or contradiction in scripture.
John 12:47-48 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Doormat
New member
Effectually means in an effectual manner. Effectual means producing or able to produce a desired effect. Therefore you are merely stating that your body was dead without explaining how it was dead. Your heart was beating; there was life in your blood. Explain how you were dead?
When you were dead in your sins, was that the wages of sin? Yes or no. If yes, your position is illogical because your heart was beating (animation). If no, your position contradicts numerous scriptures.
I have already done this over and over.
Death is separation, not cessation (principle is established by looking at all concepts relating to death).
Physical death is separation of spirit-soul (real person) from body. The body without the spirit is a dead, empty shell/lifeless. The spirit-soul without the body is very much alive, conscious, continuing after physical death until the future resurrection where the person is whole again as spirit, soul, body.
Spiritual death is relational separation of holy God from sinful man. The person in rebellion and sin is separated from intimacy/fellowship with God and stands condemned with a broken relationship.
Eternal death/second death is separation of the sinful person from a holy God forever, not in heaven, but in hell/lake of fire. They are alive as to awareness, but dead as to separation from fellowship with God.
When Adam sinned, spiritual death happened immediately. Physical death was a later consequence of sin.
For those who persist in sin and reject God's grace, eternal death/separation will be their destiny, not cessation.
Zeke
Well-known member
The master plays with the grasshoppers, many blessings freelight, Zeke.
IMJerusha
New member
I have answered everything else but this as far as I'm concerned. I'm sure that I haven't by your standards but the way I see it, Yeshua is the last word for me.
What is meant by "the saints will judge the world", IMHO,is this:
“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you."
Doormat
New member
After Adam sinned God clothed him. You're claiming that is separation from God, a type of the second death, which according to you is essentially the same thing (separation) for eternity?
Then it's just called "death" but isn't really death (Mt 9:24).
That's the same death, not two different deaths.
Do you agree that there is only one death per Hebrews 9:27?
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Adam died spiritually and God gave him provision so he would not die eternally. He still died physically (and so did sinless Jesus and redeemed saints).
Heb. talks about physical death sealing our destiny with judgment to follow. All truth is not in one verse.
The Bible talks about physical, spiritual, eternal death. Few dispute this.
Sleep is a metaphor for physical death because the body looks like it is sleeping (yet the brain is still active when one sleeps, so you can make metaphors go both ways). Soul sleep is a heretical teaching held by SDAs and JWs, not historical, biblical, orthodox Christianity. Those in hell are not sleeping even if their bodies are in a casket (the real person is spirit-soul with or without a body).
Doormat
New member
What exactly is spiritual death? Explain it.
Physical "death" is not a consequence of sin. Babies "die" every day.
Eternal separation from omnipresent God is logically only possible through annihilation.
Spiritual death alienates the sinner from a holy God (Eph. 2 read it yourself).
Physical depravity/death was a consequence of Adam's sin (Gen. 3; Rom. 5). It affects the whole race and is a consequence of Adam's original sin in the Garden. This should not be confused with moral depravity which is individual, personal, volitional.
Death affects babies, sinless Jesus, redeemed saints, godless unbelievers. Moral depravity does not affect babies, sinless Jesus. Only those who sin with mental/moral capacity are sinners. A baby does not die because he sins, but because Adam sinned and maybe because of a deadly infection, run over by a car, etc. (not moral).
God is seen in heaven manifested and worshipped (Rev. 4-5) in a way not seen in hell. The key is relational, not metaphysical, separation.
Your arguments are lame and a denial of Scripture. We see two destinies and God's presence in wrath is not the same as His presence in heaven in glory, light, joy, beauty. The saints see, know, worship Him. The sinners are separated from this sense of goodness, greatness by their selfish rebellion. They experience the wrath of God and do not worship Him before the throne of God.
Omnipresence does not mean God cannot be in Christ and that Jesus is on the throne, not in the lake of fire. You are hung up on a technicality and rejecting the forest of truth for a wrong view of one tree.
Doormat
New member
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Paul was alive without the law once, but then he died (Ro 7:9). After that, Paul was raised to life in Christ (Col 2:12). Paul never died again (Jn 11:26).
Matthew 22:32 ... God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
So? Jesus explicitly taught that physical death is not death. Spiritual and eternal death are essentially the same thing, one being the continuation or permanency of the other.
You are mistaken. Jesus specifically stated the girl was not dead. Are you going to call Jesus a liar?
Luke 8:52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
You say she was dead and Jesus said she was not dead. Jesus wins.
You say, but you also claim stuff like this:
Is that what your cult teaches? It's quite the heterodox view.
John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Paul was alive without the law once, but then he died (Ro 7:9). After that, Paul was raised to life in Christ (Col 2:12). Paul never died again (Jn 11:26).
Matthew 22:32 ... God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
So? Jesus explicitly taught that physical death is not death. Spiritual and eternal death are essentially the same thing, one being the continuation or permanency of the other.
You are mistaken. Jesus specifically stated the girl was not dead. Are you going to call Jesus a liar?
Luke 8:52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
You say she was dead and Jesus said she was not dead. Jesus wins.
You say, but you also claim stuff like this:
Is that what your cult teaches? It's quite the heterodox view.
Note--
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
This is speaking about Christ overcoming the death of the grave.
This should be interesting.
LA
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
This is speaking about Christ overcoming the death of the grave.
This should be interesting.
LA
that really clears things up
so
why even use the word death for this?
death is final
so
when you use that word, make it count
StanJ53
New member
I told you HOW I was dead. The same way Adam was dead when He sinned against God by eating from the Tree of Knowledge, 900 years later he actually died. Up to that point he was effectually dead. That's the difference between being actually dead or effectually dead.
Asked and answered. Obviously you have a hard time understanding the difference between actual and effectual.
Once you are saved/born again, you effectually have Eternal Life. You don't actually have it until you have it, just like death. You not understanding the senses in which the Bible talks about death is the problem here, NOT my actual understanding. BTW, you only get paid when you finish working. Same with life, you only receive your wages when your life is finished. It will be either Eternal Life, or Eternal Death.