Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Lazy afternoon]

Further to mess up the doctrine.

If any believe this next verse is at the beginning of the millennium then you are up the creek without a paddle, and it just might be--

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

because the verse does not say what the Kj version says--

"and shall be coming away these ones into chasening eonion,

yet the just ones into life aenoin."

This fits nicely with--

Isa 24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
Isa 24:22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever

for ever and ever here is different to Mat 25 and there is no "are" in 20:10 and it is the devil who is tormented day and night for ever and ever. No?

LA

 

[StanJ53]

Jesus explicitly taught that physical death is not death. Spiritual and eternal death are essentially the same thing, one being the continuation or permanency of the other.

Well then show us EXPLICITLY, where He taught this?

 

[Doormat]

Spiritual death alienates the sinner from a holy God (Eph. 2 read it yourself).

What does it mean to be alienated from God? Following Adam's sin God clothed him. Later God gave His only begotten Son for those spiritually dead. God still sends rain on the spiritually dead, and still blesses them with children, and truly provides for all their needs (even if they don't see that). Can you show me tangible alienation?

Physical depravity/death was a consequence of Adam's sin (Gen. 3; Rom. 5).

What specific verses in those chapters do you think prove what you are claiming?

Death affects babies, sinless Jesus, redeemed saints, godless unbelievers.

You are mistaken. Babies, sinless Jesus, and redeemed saints only appear to die. Remember Jesus said explicitly that physical death is not death, and he also said that those who believe Him would never die, and also that children were of the kingdom of heaven.

Godless unbelievers are already dead. If they don't believe the gospel, if they are not raised to life in Christ, their death becomes permanent through annihilation (2Pt 3:7-12 KJV).

God is seen in heaven manifested and worshipped (Rev. 4-5) in a way not seen in hell. The key is relational, not metaphysical, separation.

Your statement is gibberish. Relational means of or relating to kinship. God is relational because He is our Father (Acts 17:28, et al.). Explain how "the key is relational."

The sinners are separated from this sense of goodness, greatness by their selfish rebellion. They experience the wrath of God and do not worship Him before the throne of God.

What is the wrath of God they experience? Describe it.

 

[Doormat]

I told you HOW I was dead. The same way Adam was dead when He sinned against God by eating from the Tree of Knowledge,

Adam wasn't dead until he sinned. At what age did you die?

...900 years later he actually died. Up to that point he was effectually dead. That's the difference between being actually dead or effectually dead.

God said Adam would die the day he ate from the tree, and Adam did die that day. You claim he wasn't actually dead until 900 years later. I disagree.

Once you are saved/born again, you effectually have Eternal Life. You don't actually have it until you have it, just like death.

You are mistaken.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

 

[StanJ53]

Adam wasn't dead until he sinned. At what age did you die?

Adam actually died in Gen 5:5, at 930 years old. Adam effectually died when he sinned in Gen 3:6. It's very clear in scripture. Maybe you should try reading it?

God said Adam would die the day he ate from the tree, and Adam did die that day. You claim he wasn't actually dead until 900 years later. I disagree.

No that is what YOU say. The Bible says "IN the day". That connotes his lifetime obviously, as Adam DIDN'T die for another 900 years. God made Adam and Eve to live forever by eating from the Tree of Life. Death came into play when He kicked them OUT of the garden of Eden. They no longer had the Tree of Life to sustain their lives, and eventually died, PHYSICALLY. Being condemned to die and actually dying are two different things.

You are mistaken.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Yes that is right, they will not SEE life. Everlasting life is NOT immediate. We receive it AFTER we die, AFTER the first resurrection, AFTER Christ returns. It is in the same fashion or future tense that the Bible tells us we are dead in our sins, EFFECTUALLY.
1 Cor 1:8, 1 Peter 1:5, Matthew 24:12, Rev 2:26.

We are saved, but Jesus, Peter and Paul and John tell us to persevere and endure so we may receive our inheritance, Eternal Life, in the end. It is our reward for being saved and fighting the good fight. Those that fall away will NOT receive Eternal Life.

 

[Angel4Truth]

SHEOL ():
Table of Contents

Position and Form.
—Biblical Data:
God Its Ruler.
Etymology.
—Critical View:
Origin of Biblical Concept.

Position and Form.

Hebrew word of uncertain etymology (see Sheol, Critical View), synonym of "bor" (pit), "abaddon" and "shaḥat" (pit or destruction), and perhaps also of "tehom" (abyss).
—Biblical Data:

It connotes the place where those that had died were believed to be congregated. Jacob, refusing to be comforted at the supposed death of Joseph, exclaims: "I shall go down to my son a mourner unto Sheol" (Gen. xxxvii. 36, Hebr.; comp. ib. xlii. 38; xliv. 29, 31). Sheol is underneath the earth (Isa. vii. 11, lvii. 9; Ezek. xxxi. 14; Ps. lxxxvi. 13; Ecclus. [Sirach] li. 6; comp. Enoch, xvii. 6, "toward the setting of the sun"); hence it is designated as (Deut. xxxii. 22; Ps. lxxxvi. 13) or (Ps. lxxxviii. 7; Lam. iii. 55; Ezek. xxvi. 20, xxxii. 24). It is very deep (Prov. ix. 18; Isa. lvii. 9); and it marks the point at the greatest possible distance from heaven (Job xi. 8; Amos ix. 2; Ps. cxxxix. 8). The dead descend or are made to go down into it; the revived ascend or are brought and lifted up from it (I Sam. ii. 6; Job vii. 9; Ps. xxx. 4; Isa. xiv. 11, 15). Sometimes the living are hurled into Sheol before they would naturally have been claimed by it (Prov. i. 12; Num. xvi. 33; Ps. lv. 16, lxiii. 10), in which cases the earth is described as "opening her mouth" (Num. xvi. 30). Sheol is spoken of as a land (Job x. 21, 22); but ordinarily it is a place with gates (ib. xvii. 16, xxxviii. 17; Isa. xxxviii. 10; Ps. ix. 14), and seems to have been viewed as divided into compartments (Prov. vii. 27), with "farthest corners" (Isa. xiv. 15; Ezek. xxxii. 23, Hebr.; R. V. "uttermost parts of the pit"), one beneath the other (see Jew. Encyc. v. 217, s. v. Eschatology). Here the dead meet (Ezek. xxxii.; Isa. xiv.; Job xxx. 23) without distinction of rank or condition—the rich and the poor, the pious and the wicked, the old and the young, the master and the slave—if the description in Job iii. refers, as most likely it does, to Sheol. The dead continue after a fashion their earthly life. Jacob would mourn there (Gen. xxxvii. 35, xlii. 38); David abides there in peace (I Kings ii. 6); the warriors have their weapons with them (Ezek. xxxii. 27), yet they are mere shadows ("rephaim"; Isa. xiv. 9, xxvi. 14; Ps. lxxxviii. 5, A. V. "a man that hath no strength"). The dead merely exist without knowledge or feeling (Job xiv. 13; Eccl. ix. 5). Silence reigns supreme; and oblivion is the lot of them that enter therein (Ps. lxxxviii. 13, xciv. 17; Eccl. ix. 10). Hence it is known also as "Dumah," the abode of silence (Ps. vi. 6, xxx. 10, xciv. 17, cxv. 17); and there God is not praised (ib. cxv. 17; Isa. xxxviii. 15). Still, on certain extraordinary occasions the dwellers in Sheol are credited with the gift of making knowntheir feelings of rejoicing at the downfall of the enemy (Isa. xiv. 9, 10). Sleep is their usual lot (Jer. li. 39; Isa. xxvi. 14; Job xiv. 12). Sheol is a horrible, dreary, dark, disorderly land (Job x. 21, 22); yet it is the appointed house for all the living (ib. xxx. 23). Return from Sheol is not expected (II Sam. xii. 23; Job vii. 9, 10; x. 21; xiv. 7 et seq.; xvi. 22; Ecclus. [Sirach] xxxviii. 21); it is described as man's eternal house (Eccl. xii. 5). It is "dust" (Ps. xxx. 10; hence in the Shemoneh 'Esreh, in benediction No. ii., the dead are described as "sleepers in the dust").
God Its Ruler.

God's rulership over it is recognized (Amos ix. 2; Hos. xiii. 14; Deut. xxxii. 22; I Sam. ii. 6 [Isa. vii. 11?]; Prov. xv. 11). Hence He has the power to save the pious therefrom (Ps. xvi. 10, xlix. 16, the text of which latter passage, however, is recognized as corrupt). Yet Sheol is never satiated (Prov. xxx. 20); she "makes wide her soul," i.e., increases her desire (Isa. v. 14) and capacity. In these passages Sheol is personified; it is described also as a pasture for sheep with death as the shepherd (Ps. xlix. 15). From Sheol Samuel is cited by the witch of En-dor (I Sam. xxviii. 3 et seq.). As a rule Sheol will not give up its own. They are held captive with ropes. This seems to be the original idea underlying the phrase (II Sam. xxii. 6; Ps. xviii. 6; R. V., verse 5, "the cords of Sheol") and of the other expression, (Ps. cxvi. 3; R. V. "and the pains of Sheol"); for they certainly imply restraint or capture. Sheol is used as a simile for "jealousy" (Cant. viii. 7). For the post-Biblical development of the ideas involved see Eschatology.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13563-sheol

 

[godrulz]

Heb. 9:27 precludes reincarnation, not physical, spiritual, eternal death taught in other contexts. If one thinks Heb. 9 precludes more than one meaning to death, then they are proof texting out of context, guilty of eisegesis, not doing sound exegesis. Don't create a contradiction with many other verses by a wrong view of this one.

 

[godrulz]

Note--

1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is speaking about Christ overcoming the death of the grave.

This should be interesting.

LA

The context is physical resurrection/glorification. It does not support 'soul sleep'. Other contexts relate to spirit-soul vs future physical resurrection.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

The context is physical resurrection/glorification. It does not support 'soul sleep'. Other contexts relate to spirit-soul vs future physical resurrection.

The soul is the life of a one having a spirit and a body (a man)

Christ returns to raise the saints from the dead.

Your religious views are too set, and get in the way of your receiving the full truth.

You need to run over all of these things again like I do, and more truth will emerge instead of the insufficent inadequate answers of failed religion.



LA

 

[Omniskeptical]

The awakening of the dead happens now, but the stuff about fire and worms is about a place on earth called gehenna. There are 2 verbs in those bible wordings which are present tense; and if the greek article is indefinite, it would be rendered "where a worm or yours doesn't die, and a fire doesn't get quenched." But this verse is about Gehenna and not the afterlife.

 

[chrysostom]

poor tim got a taste of eternal torment

 

[IMJerusha]

Some information about Gehenna.
http://judaism.about.com/od/judaismbasics/a/Gehenna-Jewish-Views-of-the-Afterlife.htm

Considering Yeshua's references to it, Gehenna seems to be a real place, not a figment of rabbinical imagination and it most certainly has to do with the afterlife.

See this link for information regarding what Gehenna is like.
http://judaism.about.com/od/judaismbasics/a/What-Is-Gehenna-Like-Jewish-Views-Afterlife.htm

 

[Aimiel]

From the article entitled, "Eternal Suffering or Eternal Destruction," by Stanley J. Grenz

Click here for original article.

Problems with the Annihilationist Position


Whatever its appeal, the annihilationist position contains substantive problems. One is the biblical assertions that the wicked will suffer an “eternal” fate. Annihilationists argue that the word eternal refers to the permanence of the results of judgment and not to the duration of the act of punishment.

Many Scripture passages, however, say more than this. Biblical writers use the word eternal to refer not only to the punishment of the lost but also to the bliss of the righteous (Matthew 25:46), suggesting a parallel that goes beyond the permanence of the pronounced judgment. The unending joy of the redeemed stands in contrast to the unending torment of the reprobate. Also, several New Testament texts indicate that the lost will suffer varying degrees of punishment. Jesus declared that those who have received greater opportunities for belief will suffer more severe condemnation (Matthew 10:15; 11:20-24; Luke 12:47, 48).

While many annihilationists believe in different degrees of torment before extinction, they anticipate only one ultimate destiny for all the wicked, an undifferentiated nonexistence. But can a righteous Judge pronounce the same sentence of destiny upon the most despicable villain of human history as upon the seemingly moral pagan? Also, doesn’t passing out of existence trivialize the seriousness of the choices we make in life and the importance of our response to God’s loving offer of community?

Here is another good article on ECT: http://www.bible-researcher.com/hell4.html

 

[not4sure]

I am thinking hell may be a eternal thread on the issue of whether hell is forever. That would be torture.

 

[Aimiel]

Hell Jokes

Two Guys From Detroit


Two guys from Detroit, Michigan die and wake up in hell. The next day, the devil stops to check on them and sees them dressed in parkas, mittens and bomber hats, warming themselves around the fire.

The devil asks them, "What are you doing? Isn't it hot enough for you?"

The two guys reply, "Well, you know, we're from Michigan, the land of ice and snow and cold. We're just happy for a chance to warm up a bit, you know."

The devil decides that these two aren't miserable enough and turns up the heat. The next morning, he stops by again and there they are, still dressed in their parkas, mittens and hats.

The devil asks them again, "It's awfully hot down here, can't you guys feel that?"

Again, the guys reply, "Well, like we told you yesterday, we're from Michigan, the land of ice and snow and cold. We're just happy to warm up a little bit, you know."

The devil gets a little steamed up and he decides to fix the two guys. He cranks the heat up as high as it will go. The people are wailing and screaming everywhere. He stops by the room with the two guys from Detroit and finds them in light jackets and hats, grilling sausage and drinking beer.

The devil is astonished. "Everyone down here is in abject misery , and you seem to be enjoying yourselves."

The two Michiganders reply, "Well, ya know, we don't get too much warm weather up there in Detroit, we've just got to have a cookout when the weather is this nice."

The devil is absolutely furious, he can hardly see straight. Finally, he comes up with an answer. These two love the heat because they have been cold all their lives. He decides to turn all the heat in hell off.

The next morning, the temperature is below zero, icicles are hanging everywhere, the people are shivering so bad, they are unable to wail, moan or gnash their teeth.

The devil smiles and heads for the room with the 2 Michiganders. He finds them back in their parkas, mittens and hats. They are jumping up and down and cheering.

The devil was dumbfounded. "I don't understand. When I turn the heat up, you're happy. Now it's freezing cold, and you're happy. What is wrong with you two?"

The Michiganders look at the devil in surprise. "Well, don't ya know - if hell froze over, that must mean. The Lions won the Super Bowl!"

 

[Zeke]

Spiritual death alienates the sinner from a holy God (Eph. 2 read it yourself).

Physical depravity/death was a consequence of Adam's sin (Gen. 3; Rom. 5). It affects the whole race and is a consequence of Adam's original sin in the Garden. This should not be confused with moral depravity which is individual, personal, volitional.

Death affects babies, sinless Jesus, redeemed saints, godless unbelievers. Moral depravity does not affect babies, sinless Jesus. Only those who sin with mental/moral capacity are sinners. A baby does not die because he sins, but because Adam sinned and maybe because of a deadly infection, run over by a car, etc. (not moral).

God is seen in heaven manifested and worshipped (Rev. 4-5) in a way not seen in hell. The key is relational, not metaphysical, separation.

Your arguments are lame and a denial of Scripture. We see two destinies and God's presence in wrath is not the same as His presence in heaven in glory, light, joy, beauty. The saints see, know, worship Him. The sinners are separated from this sense of goodness, greatness by their selfish rebellion. They experience the wrath of God and do not worship Him before the throne of God.

Omnipresence does not mean God cannot be in Christ and that Jesus is on the throne, not in the lake of fire. You are hung up on a technicality and rejecting the forest of truth for a wrong view of one tree.

Thats why its best to drown your babies, that way they won't be held accountable and risk the possiblity of going to eternal hellfire, no need to waste time living on earth when one can get on the express lane strait through the pearly gates into paradise.

 

[Padre Vorbis]

According to Principia Discordia, Hell is reserved exclusively for those who believe in it. The lowest circle of Hell is reserved for those who believe in it on the basis that they'll go there if they don't.

 

[Lighthouse]

The awakening of the dead happens now, but the stuff about fire and worms is about a place on earth called gehenna. There are 2 verbs in those bible wordings which are present tense; and if the greek article is indefinite, it would be rendered "where a worm or yours doesn't die, and a fire doesn't get quenched." But this verse is about Gehenna and not the afterlife.

So an earthly fire in which a worm does not perish?

You should join Mensa.

 

[godrulz]

Thats why its best to drown your babies, that way they won't be held accountable and risk the possiblity of going to eternal hellfire, no need to waste time living on earth when one can get on the express lane strait through the pearly gates into paradise.

Sanctity of life. What a stupid argument, contrary to God's wisdom and ways.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

From the article entitled, "Eternal Suffering or Eternal Destruction," by Stanley J. Grenz

Click here for original article.

Problems with the Annihilationist Position


Whatever its appeal, the annihilationist position contains substantive problems. One is the biblical assertions that the wicked will suffer an “eternal” fate. Annihilationists argue that the word eternal refers to the permanence of the results of judgment and not to the duration of the act of punishment.

Many Scripture passages, however, say more than this. Biblical writers use the word eternal to refer not only to the punishment of the lost but also to the bliss of the righteous (Matthew 25:46), suggesting a parallel that goes beyond the permanence of the pronounced judgment. The unending joy of the redeemed stands in contrast to the unending torment of the reprobate. Also, several New Testament texts indicate that the lost will suffer varying degrees of punishment. Jesus declared that those who have received greater opportunities for belief will suffer more severe condemnation (Matthew 10:15; 11:20-24; Luke 12:47, 48).

While many annihilationists believe in different degrees of torment before extinction, they anticipate only one ultimate destiny for all the wicked, an undifferentiated nonexistence. But can a righteous Judge pronounce the same sentence of destiny upon the most despicable villain of human history as upon the seemingly moral pagan? Also, doesn’t passing out of existence trivialize the seriousness of the choices we make in life and the importance of our response to God’s loving offer of community?

Here is another good article on ECT: http://www.bible-researcher.com/hell4.html

Have you read Mat.25:46 in Kione Greek?

I bet you have not.

LA