Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Doormat]

There is no talking to you people, so goodbye.

Well, I've enjoyed your participation and think you did a great job defending your position. :cheers:

 

[StanJ53]

Okay, you all agree. The Bible says that the lost will go to hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever while they are dead. I just somehow missed that verse. The Bible doesn't say that the wages of sin is death. I made that up. It doesn't say that in Romans 6:23. They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction actually means that they will pay the penalty of never being destroyed but always being in torment in hell. You win. Its pathetic to believe the Bible which says that the wicked will perish and be no more and it is non-pathetic to believe that the wicked will never perish and will continue to exist forever in hell. Yep! I'm pathetic, because I believe the Bible.

You could try actually reading the scripture that you claim says the lost will go to hell when they die where they are tormented alive forever while they are dead, so that you can see that it doesn't actually say that.

There is no talking to you people, so goodbye. Bunch of brainwashed robots.

If you continue to use eisegesis, when you read scripture and fail to see that DEATH ONLY relates to the BODY, you will have this same type of confusion ALL the time.

 

[Doormat]

If you continue to use eisegesis, when you read scripture and fail to see that DEATH ONLY relates to the BODY, you will have this same type of confusion ALL the time.

Were you ever dead in your sins?

 

[doloresistere]

There is no talking to you people, so goodbye. Bunch of brainwashed robots.

Calm down. You remind me a lot of myself.

 

[godrulz]

I rationalize them away?
Romans 6:23 specifically and directly says that the wages of sin is death. I believe the wages of sin is death. You tell me that the wages of sin is NOT DEATH, but eternal conscious torment in hell instead and you say I rationalize scripture away? You tell me "See there is eternal conscious torment because Matt 25:46 says there is eternal punishment. Its not "rationalizing them away" to say "That verse doesn't say that". Someone just told me that the penalty to be paid is eternal conscious torment because 2 Thess 1:9 says that the penalty to be paid is eternal destruction, not eternal conscious torment. I think this is not a theological problem, its a reading comprehension problem.

You have a wrong understanding of death. Eph. 2 talks about being dead in sin while yet alive (cf. I Tim. 5:6).

 

[Doormat]

You have a wrong understanding of death. Eph. 2 talks about being dead in sin while yet alive (cf. I Tim. 5:6).

Explain what you believe death is. How many deaths are there? Describe them.

 

[StanJ53]

Were you ever dead in your sins?

Yes, effectually.

 

[Doormat]

If you continue to use eisegesis, when you read scripture and fail to see that DEATH ONLY relates to the BODY, you will have this same type of confusion ALL the time.

Were you ever dead in your sins?

Yes, effectually.

Was your heart still beating when you were dead in your sins?

 

[Doormat]

Again:
Capital punishment is the result of man's judgment.

You are mistaken.

Genesis 9:6 Whoever sheds man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Numbers 15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

Eternal punishment is the result of God's judgment.

You are mistaken.

1 Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

John 12: 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

Matthew 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

 

[IMJerusha]

Did you read the verses that you claim say that the lost go to hell when they die where they are to be tormented alive forever while they are dead? I'm not ignoring these verses, I'm reading them. The only one that says anything about torment is Rev 20:10, the one in the book full of symbolism. Please reread what the verses actually say, and you will see that they don't supprt ECT. Some of them actually contradict ECT. Matthew 10:28, 2 Thess 1:9, and Jude 7 come immediately to mind. In fact, I'm baffled how you can look at 2 Thess 1:9 and come to believe the exact opposite of what it says. So, I don't have an attitude. I have reading ability.

What you have is a doctrine that is something other than what Yeshua described.

 

[keypurr]

You have a wrong understanding of death. Eph. 2 talks about being dead in sin while yet alive (cf. I Tim. 5:6).

Nope, your wrong. He's right. Death is death, not an eternal fire with everyone in pain. If that is your god then I do not wish to be with him. My God is loving and just.

 

[keypurr]

What you have is a doctrine that is something other than what Yeshua described.

I think your wrong but I like your avatar. No guns just pie, great.

 

[Doormat]

What you have is a doctrine that is something other than what Yeshua described.

What is the consequence for teaching a doctrine contrary to what Jesus taught?

 

[StanJ53]

Was your heart still beating when you were dead in your sins?

Yes it was.

 

[IMJerusha]

You are mistaken.

Genesis 9:6 Whoever sheds man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Numbers 15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

I don't think I am mistaken. We do not live in a Theocracy. The laws man judges man by are modeled after God's Law but they are not God's Laws. Man makes excuses for man (1st degree murder, 2nd degree murder, manslaughter, etc.) and God accepts no excuses.

You are mistaken.

1 Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

John 12: 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

Matthew 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

I don't think I am mistaken.
Matthew 25:46 (Yeshua said,) “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Hebrews 10:26-31 - "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, 'It is mine to avenge; I will repay,' and again, 'The Lord will judge his people.' It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

 

[IMJerusha]

What is the consequence for teaching a doctrine contrary to what Jesus taught?

That is not for me to decide.

 

[freelight]

Love everlasting....

Love everlasting....

As YOU don't know MY God and the God of MOST here, your words are rather empty and impotent.

My previous arguments and points on the problems of the concept of 'ECT' still holds and shows such to be 'problematic' on many levels, let alone violating the principles of justice, mercy, fairness, reason and the mediation of divine love and wisdom. Ignoring these glaring contradictions of God's character and actions for the belief in ECT is untenble. ECT fails....let alone if anyone can actually prove what is 'biblical' about it, since everyone has their own 'interpretation' of various passages.

Your assumption above does nothing to prove the concept of ECT, as your 'belief' about my knowedge of 'God' is a misinformed opinion. Those who have the courage of intellectual honesty and the value of reason, would not accept that 'God' would forever withhold his love, mercy and salvation from his offspring, committing them to an eternity of torment to no end or resolve. Only an insane and unjust 'god', worse than the devil...would manage such a system.

Remember,....what is Love' eternal will? Does Love inflict pain, torment, suffering, punishment TO NO END? The Father's love is eternal, and consequences of transgressing natural and spiritual laws produces its own suffering, whereby souls reap what they sow. The law itself acts this way, for breaking such or obeying such produces its own results. Punishment and consequences are corrective or disciplinary in nature, which work to enlighten and encourage the sinner towards the right path, for Love ever calls souls back home. Chastisements then are ultimately for one's own good....and the universe that is held together by God works towards the ultimate reconciliation and reunion of all sentient beings with God, for such a movement is by the very will and power of God.

Consider the infinity of God's love.




pj

 

[Doormat]

If you continue to use eisegesis, when you read scripture and fail to see that DEATH ONLY relates to the BODY, you will have this same type of confusion ALL the time.

Were you ever dead in your sins?

Yes, effectually.

Was your heart still beating when you were dead in your sins?

Yes it was.

How was your body dead?

Define death that is the wages of sin.

 

[Doormat]

That is not for me to decide.

Do you think you might find the answer to that question in scripture?

 

[IMJerusha]

I think your wrong but I like your avatar. No guns just pie, great.

Thank you Brother, but you know, what is unseen is eternal.