Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Lazy afternoon]

I asked him to explain what he means by eternal separation from God, but have yet to see anyone who believes that answer explain it.

Where isn't God? :idunno:

How do you see these scriptures--


Gen 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
Gen 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.


1Pe 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.


LA

 

[doloresistere]

In the sense that the rich man was in hades, yes. That was the point of the parable. Being in darkness and not seeing the light is a bad thing to experience. I speak from experience.



How? Without a body there is no nervous system.

If the wrath of God is an extinction level event by fire (2Pt 3:7-12), and the wicked will be no more (Ps 37:10, 20), and will be ashes (Mal 4:1-3), and have body and soul destroyed (Mt 10:28), it follows that the wicked will be annihilated.

The loss of one's individuality, one's consciousness is the ultimate punishment for rejecting Christ. It will be quick and just, as opposed to ECT.

Consider it from this perspective. The wicked are only figuratively children of the devil (1Jn 3:10) because God formed them in the womb (Deut 32:6) and is their only Father (Mt 23:9). Paul said what he did in Acts 17:28 to idolatrous pagans. Keeping that in mind, imagine if you had a son that committed the most heinous crime and sin that you can imagine. Wouldn't you suffer watching him suffer for his sin?

Now our Father in heaven doesn't want any person to perish (2Pt 3:9, Jn 3:16), so we should consider what is meant by eternal punishment in light of that. Why are they being punished? For not believing something. Think back to Noah (Mt 24:37). Instead of a flood of water, this time it will be a flood of fire (2Pt 3:7-12). The only way to pass through that event, to survive the fire, is through faith (like the three worthies in the fiery furnace in the Book of Daniel). The wicked do not have the faith to survive the eternal fire of God when they will have to stand in His presence (Isa 33:14).

That certainly gets rid of a lot incongruities that most people believe in concerning punishment and the afterlife. At least that explanation is consistent and scriptural.

 

[Doormat]

He is estranged from the wicked now. They are dead now. How is living on the earth different for them from living in "Hell?"

Are they conscious?

Based on what you believe ... How is living on the earth different for them from living in "Hell?"

 

[Angel4Truth]

Based on what you believe ... How is living on the earth different for them from living in "Hell?"

The Holy Spirit is resident in the church, so Gods presence and protections are in the world so even those in spiritual darkness do not experience complete separation because of those around them.

Those in hell however are not with and around those filled with Gods spirit and the full force of their separation is known and felt.

 

[Doormat]

That certainly gets rid of a lot incongruities that most people believe in concerning punishment and the afterlife. At least that explanation is consistent and scriptural.

Imagine if a father tells his son to not stick a butter knife in a power outlet (analogous to telling him to believe the gospel). The "punishment" (consequence) for not believing that is electrocution (analogous to annihilation). Now imagine if the punishment was never ending electrocution in retribution for not believing while the father watched his son suffer (analogous to ECT).

 

[Angel4Truth]

Imagine if a father tells his son to not stick a butter knife in a power outlet (analogous to telling him to believe the gospel). The "punishment" (consequence) for not believing that is electrocution (analogous to annihilation). Now imagine if the punishment was never ending electrocution in retribution for not believing while the father watched his son suffer (analogous to ECT).

We are never His son if we refuse His only begotten son. So your analogy is flawed.

 

[Doormat]

We are never His son if we refuse His only begotten son. So your analogy is flawed.

You are mistaken. Paul said what he did in Acts 17:28 to idolatrous pagans. Who doesn't Matthew 23:9 apply to?

 

[Angel4Truth]

You are mistaken. Paul said what he did in Acts 17:28 to idolatrous pagans. Who doesn't Matthew 23:9 apply to?

Both of your sctiptures are out of context to what we are discussing.

This one applies though:

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name

Romans 8:15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"

John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

 

[Doormat]

Both of your sctiptures are out of context to what we are discussing.

You are mistaken. If you were once not God's offspring, and He was once not your Father, then who was your father? If not the Devil, who?

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name.

Romans 8:15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"

You are wrongly assuming "become children of God" and "adoption" means you were once not God's offspring. Both Acts 17:28 and Matthew 23:9 refute your interpretation, as well as numerous other scriptures you could easily find, e.g. Deuteronomy 32:6, Isaiah 64:8, Matthew 6:9.

John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Was your father the devil from conception? Yes or no.

Who formed you in the womb? God or the devil?

 

[godrulz]

That's a horse, Brother.

Beating the proverbial dead horse...we are going in circles.

 

[godrulz]

No, it doesn't.

You are getting angry with me for no reason. All I'm doing is asking "What does the Bible say?" If the Bible says that people go to hell when they die where they are tormented alive forever while they are dead, the give me the verse that says that, and I'm happy. Jeshua said it, I believe it, that settles it. But if there is no such verse, and the dcotrine of ECT can't be defended Biblically, then don't get angry with me for saying "Show me the verses".

We give you verses, but you rationalize them away. Tormented day and night forever and ever is clear, but you dismiss it as figurative because it is in Revelation. Is the Second Coming of Christ also figurative because it is in Revelation?!

 

[Timotheos]

Yes, it does. Yeshua is clear that there will be eternal fire, eternal punishment. He said it and so I believe it.



I warned you, I'm not getting angry, I'm getting ugly and I'm not pretty when I'm ugly! :darwinsm:



You can stow your cocky attitude, Brother. You have been shown verses. You have chosen to ignore them.
Matthew 5:22
Matthew 5:29
Matthew 10:28
Matthew 18:8
Matthew 25:41
Matthew 25:46
2Thessalonians 1:5-10
Mark 3:29
Isaiah 33:14
2Peter 2:9
Jude 7
Jude 13
Revelation 14:9-11
Mark 9:42-48
Isaiah 66:22-24
Daniel 12:1-2
Revelation 20:10

Did you read the verses that you claim say that the lost go to hell when they die where they are to be tormented alive forever while they are dead? I'm not ignoring these verses, I'm reading them. The only one that says anything about torment is Rev 20:10, the one in the book full of symbolism. Please reread what the verses actually say, and you will see that they don't supprt ECT. Some of them actually contradict ECT. Matthew 10:28, 2 Thess 1:9, and Jude 7 come immediately to mind. In fact, I'm baffled how you can look at 2 Thess 1:9 and come to believe the exact opposite of what it says. So, I don't have an attitude. I have reading ability.

 

[Timotheos]

We give you verses, but you rationalize them away. Tormented day and night forever and ever is clear, but you dismiss it as figurative because it is in Revelation. Is the Second Coming of Christ also figurative because it is in Revelation?!

I rationalize them away?
Romans 6:23 specifically and directly says that the wages of sin is death. I believe the wages of sin is death. You tell me that the wages of sin is NOT DEATH, but eternal conscious torment in hell instead and you say I rationalize scripture away? You tell me "See there is eternal conscious torment because Matt 25:46 says there is eternal punishment. Its not "rationalizing them away" to say "That verse doesn't say that". Someone just told me that the penalty to be paid is eternal conscious torment because 2 Thess 1:9 says that the penalty to be paid is eternal destruction, not eternal conscious torment. I think this is not a theological problem, its a reading comprehension problem.

 

[Doormat]

We give you verses, but you rationalize them away.

Like you tried to do here:

The Dead are Dead. They know nothing.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion forever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Ecclesiastes is the thinking of a fallen man away from God.

Unbelievable.

He said everything is meaningless, etc.

Unbelievable.

Not everything Solomon said in the book of Eccl. is true.

What specifically do you believe is false?

Vanity, vanity, meaningless, meaningless, life is futile. This is a man apart from God, not one connected to Him.

You have not proven that "Ecclesiastes is the thinking of a fallen man away from God," and you have not given an example of something you can prove false in the book of Ecclesiastes.

Is life meaningless, meaningless, meaningless? Yes, life apart from God. God gives life purpose, but Solomon away from God despaired. Much of it is the musings of backslidden Solomon.

Stop generalizing. What are the specific verses in Ecclesiastes that you believe are not true? Chapter and verse please.

The opening statements that life is meaningless, vanity, without purpose are not true from God's perspective. Eccl. 1:2 Is everything meaningless?! No!

Eccl. 1:18 wisdom and knowledge do not have to lead to sorrow and grief. Jesus was full of wisdom, knowledge, peace, and joy.

Eccl. 3:19 man's fate is not like the animals. They rot in the ground, but we can live with God forever. Man does have advantages in the image of God over animals, contrary to the literal statement in this verse.

Eccl. 3:22 NIV This is a hedonistic, not a biblical concept. We live for the glory of God and the next life, not just the pleasures of sin in this world.

Eccl. 4:4 NIV This is not true of the godly. It is a generalization that is not in line with other verses.

See what you did there? Ecclesiastes 1:18, 3:19, 3:22, and 4:4 are all true, but you are arguing they are false to try and diminish Solomon's credibility and to obscure the meaning of Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 and Ecclesiastes 9:10.

 

[Tambora]

Yes, it does. Yeshua is clear that there will be eternal fire, eternal punishment. He said it and so I believe it.

I believe Him too.

You can stow your cocky attitude, Brother. You have been shown verses. You have chosen to ignore them.

It is getting a bit pathetic that he keeps saying that, when we have all used scripture to back up what we have said.

 

[Doormat]

Tormented day and night forever and ever is clear, but you dismiss it as figurative because it is in Revelation.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

If it's not a literal lake of fire, and not a literal beast, then why would you believe they are literally tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 3:8 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Do you interpret all that as literal, too?

 

[steko]

I believe Him too.





It is getting a bit pathetic that he keeps saying that, when we have all used scripture to back up what we have said.

Yep!

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

If it's not a literal lake of fire, and not a literal beast, then why would you believe they are literally tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 3:8 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Do you interpret all that as literal, too?

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

There is no day and night in eternity, but it is a long time.

There is no indication that being cast into the lake of fire is anything but a second death.

LA

 

[Timotheos]

You can stow your cocky attitude, Brother. You have been shown verses. You have chosen to ignore them.

It is getting a bit pathetic that he keeps saying that, when we have all used scripture to back up what we have said.

Yep!

Okay, you all agree. The Bible says that the lost will go to hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever while they are dead. I just somehow missed that verse. The Bible doesn't say that the wages of sin is death. I made that up. It doesn't say that in Romans 6:23. They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction actually means that they will pay the penalty of never being destroyed but always being in torment in hell. You win. Its pathetic to believe the Bible which says that the wicked will perish and be no more and it is non-pathetic to believe that the wicked will never perish and will continue to exist forever in hell. Yep! I'm pathetic, because I believe the Bible.

You could try actually reading the scripture that you claim says the lost will go to hell when they die where they are tormented alive forever while they are dead, so that you can see that it doesn't actually say that.

There is no talking to you people, so goodbye. Bunch of brainwashed robots.

 

[StanJ53]

Exercise your conscience about these issues over your 'theology' and 'interpretation' of a few passages and you may discover that your 'God' of eternal torment, insanity and injustice is just a figment of your imagination. Remember,...God is just,...and that justice is ever tempered and meditated by love, whose will ever upholds the good, value and prosperity of his creation.

Punishments for sin are consequences for trangressing universal laws, and 'sinners' only suffer to the extent and duration of their 'transgressions',...measure for measure, and according to the law of karma, until such sins are 'expiated' (repented of) to which souls re-join 'God' being in harmony with his laws. Your monster of a 'god' would keep souls in a state of torment forever, with no hope of salvation, relief or resolve....ever! This is repungnant to reason, unjust, purposeless, and unbecoming of a God of intelligence, let alone a merciful and beneficent God who wills the good and prosperity of his creations.

You furthermore have to prove how souls could seperate themselves from an omnipresent 'God' for all eternity, or even one moment of existence, let alone inflict upon themselves a punishment whose penality has no end, purpose or satisfaction of the eternal will of Love itself.....since condemnation to a state of eternal seperateness to which there is no hope of reunion with 'God' contradicts His very will.

Again, even apart from a concept or possibility of 'soul-death'....you still have the problem of explaining how a soul could 'forever' seperate itself from the omnipresence of God and be 'stuck' in such a 'state' for all eternity.



pj

As YOU don't know MY God and the God of MOST here, your words are rather empty and impotent.