Then the person who said that "death is no punishment because you aren't conscious of it" was also wrong. Because man's punishment is moot.
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
Then the person who said that "death is no punishment because you aren't conscious of it" was also wrong. Because man's punishment is moot.
Guilty of SDA/JW soul sleep heresy. A wrong view of the soul leads to a wrong view of hell.
No, you are not JW or SDA, just argue like them.arty:
And you are not a donkey, you just argue like one.
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freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
clear the fog ...and see the light
clear the fog ...and see the light
Exercise your conscience about these issues over your 'theology' and 'interpretation' of a few passages and you may discover that your 'God' of eternal torment, insanity and injustice is just a figment of your imagination. Remember,...God is just,...and that justice is ever tempered and meditated by love, whose will ever upholds the good, value and prosperity of his creation.
Punishments for sin are consequences for trangressing universal laws, and 'sinners' only suffer to the extent and duration of their 'transgressions',...measure for measure, and according to the law of karma, until such sins are 'expiated' (repented of) to which souls re-join 'God' being in harmony with his laws. Your monster of a 'god' would keep souls in a state of torment forever, with no hope of salvation, relief or resolve....ever! This is repungnant to reason, unjust, purposeless, and unbecoming of a God of intelligence, let alone a merciful and beneficent God who wills the good and prosperity of his creations.
You furthermore have to prove how souls could seperate themselves from an omnipresent 'God' for all eternity, or even one moment of existence, let alone inflict upon themselves a punishment whose penality has no end, purpose or satisfaction of the eternal will of Love itself.....since condemnation to a state of eternal seperateness to which there is no hope of reunion with 'God' contradicts His very will.
Again, even apart from a concept or possibility of 'soul-death'....you still have the problem of explaining how a soul could 'forever' seperate itself from the omnipresence of God and be 'stuck' in such a 'state' for all eternity.
pj
clear the fog ...and see the light
Exercise your conscience about these issues over your 'theology' and 'interpretation' of a few passages and you may discover that your 'God' of eternal torment, insanity and injustice is just a figment of your imagination. Remember,...God is just,...and that justice is ever tempered and meditated by love, whose will ever upholds the good, value and prosperity of his creation.
Punishments for sin are consequences for trangressing universal laws, and 'sinners' only suffer to the extent and duration of their 'transgressions',...measure for measure, and according to the law of karma, until such sins are 'expiated' (repented of) to which souls re-join 'God' being in harmony with his laws. Your monster of a 'god' would keep souls in a state of torment forever, with no hope of salvation, relief or resolve....ever! This is repungnant to reason, unjust, purposeless, and unbecoming of a God of intelligence, let alone a merciful and beneficent God who wills the good and prosperity of his creations.
You furthermore have to prove how souls could seperate themselves from an omnipresent 'God' for all eternity, or even one moment of existence, let alone inflict upon themselves a punishment whose penality has no end, purpose or satisfaction of the eternal will of Love itself.....since condemnation to a state of eternal seperateness to which there is no hope of reunion with 'God' contradicts His very will.
Again, even apart from a concept or possibility of 'soul-death'....you still have the problem of explaining how a soul could 'forever' seperate itself from the omnipresence of God and be 'stuck' in such a 'state' for all eternity.
pj
:deadhorse:
IMJerusha
New member
Not only is man's punishment moot in terms of eternity, it's often wrong. Consider Yeshua's torture and punishment.
IMJerusha
New member
That's a horse, Brother.
No, it doesn't.
You are getting angry with me for no reason. All I'm doing is asking "What does the Bible say?" If the Bible says that people go to hell when they die where they are tormented alive forever while they are dead, the give me the verse that says that, and I'm happy. Jeshua said it, I believe it, that settles it. But if there is no such verse, and the dcotrine of ECT can't be defended Biblically, then don't get angry with me for saying "Show me the verses".
Of course, I could always be wrong.
doloresistere
New member
It all depends on what you mean by tempted. Jesus could not be tempted by evil. It had no hold on him. There was no desire to do evil period. Mankind is born with the desire to do all manner of evil depending on where their weakness is.
Doormat
New member
I asked him to explain what he means by eternal separation from God, but have yet to see anyone who believes that answer explain it.
Where isn't God? :idunno:
doloresistere
New member
Perhaps it means lack of communication. He would provide no comfort as he does now.
:up:
Tambora said:
Perhaps it does mean that. What does the Bible say? Does the Bible say that? Which Book of the Bible? Where is the Chapter and Verse.
I keep getting accused of not believing the Bible. Yet, I always tell why I believe what I believe by giving the Scripture citation. I guess if I believed a very popular doctrine like the one you guys believe, I wouldn't have to defend it biblically either. I would hope that I still would. I know all of the reasons I believe in the trinity.
IMJerusha
New member
Yes, it does. Yeshua is clear that there will be eternal fire, eternal punishment. He said it and so I believe it.
I warned you, I'm not getting angry, I'm getting ugly and I'm not pretty when I'm ugly! :darwinsm:
You can stow your cocky attitude, Brother. You have been shown verses. You have chosen to ignore them.
Matthew 5:22
Matthew 5:29
Matthew 10:28
Matthew 18:8
Matthew 25:41
Matthew 25:46
2Thessalonians 1:5-10
Mark 3:29
Isaiah 33:14
2Peter 2:9
Jude 7
Jude 13
Revelation 14:9-11
Mark 9:42-48
Isaiah 66:22-24
Daniel 12:1-2
Revelation 20:10
Zeke
Well-known member
So what is Paul speaking about in Romans 7:18? there is a part of Paul that needs to be dealt with, it still overpowers his will to do Gods will, Romans 7:15, so when the scripture speaks of destruction of the wicked it's not speaking of the innerman who desires to do the will of God.
Romans 11, also goes onto speak of those who are enemies for the sake of others, will also be shown Gods mercy Romans 11:33-35.
So just because someone is doing things we might find horrible, we need to read Romans seven over again to grasp that maybe they also hate it without others knowing it.
This world is a school of contrasts, without them how would you know what hot or cold meant, good or evil? the transgression so called in the garden of eden take place in every soul. Plus when we speak of death as the final line in the cosmic sand we don't really understand the multiple ways its used, some that spoke with Jesus were called dead etc... its a similitude or figurative speech for teaching just like the punishment of the wicked flesh that Paul hated within.
Doormat
New member
He is estranged from the wicked now. They are dead now. How is living on the earth different for them from living in "Hell?"
Doormat
New member
Not possible. Just scratching the surface ...
Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
John 9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.
Proverbs 15:29 The LORD is far from the wicked but he hears the prayer of the righteous.
Proverbs 28:9 If anyone turns a deaf ear to the law, even his prayers are detestable.
Isaiah 1:15 When you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide my eyes from you; even if you offer many prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are full of blood;
Luke 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but you go and preach the kingdom of God.
The wicked are dead now. They are separate from God now while God is everywhere.
doloresistere
New member
perhaps they are in hell now. It must be worse in hell when their is no corporeality.
Doormat
New member
In the sense that the rich man was in hades, yes. That was the point of the parable. Being in darkness and not seeing the light is a bad thing to experience. I speak from experience.
How? Without a body there is no nervous system.
If the wrath of God is an extinction level event by fire (2Pt 3:7-12), and the wicked will be no more (Ps 37:10, 20), and will be ashes (Mal 4:1-3), and have body and soul destroyed (Mt 10:28), it follows that the wicked will be annihilated.
The loss of one's individuality, one's consciousness is the ultimate punishment for rejecting Christ. It will be quick and just, as opposed to ECT.
Consider it from this perspective. The wicked are only figuratively children of the devil (1Jn 3:10) because God formed them in the womb (Deut 32:6) and is their only Father (Mt 23:9). Paul said what he did in Acts 17:28 to idolatrous pagans. Keeping that in mind, imagine if you had a son that committed the most heinous crime and sin that you can imagine. Wouldn't you suffer watching him suffer for his sin?
Now our Father in heaven doesn't want any person to perish (2Pt 3:9, Jn 3:16), so we should consider what is meant by eternal punishment in light of that. Why are they being punished? For not believing something. Think back to Noah (Mt 24:37). Instead of a flood of water, this time it will be a flood of fire (2Pt 3:7-12). The only way to pass through that event, to survive the fire, is through faith (like the three worthies in the fiery furnace in the Book of Daniel). The wicked do not have the faith to survive the eternal fire of God when they will have to stand in His presence (Isa 33:14).
Are they conscious?