Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Angel4Truth]

Sure, no problem, as SOON AS YOU SHOW ME WHERE I EVER SAID THAT WE GET ANOTHER CHANCE FOR SALVATION AFTER WE DIE!!!!!!

I would take the eternity in prison, rather than the blotting. I'm a natural optimist, and would bide my time waiting for eventual justice. Eternity is a long time and anything can happen. I can dig a long tunnel if I have an eternity to do it.

You said it there ^

Where do you get that in scripture?

 

[IMJerusha]

What?

Hmm, how quickly they forget!

I already answered this.

I missed your answer. I apologize for badgering you about it but I did not see it.

 

[Timotheos]

You said it there ^

Where do you get that in scripture?

My answer was in response to this question:

If you had the choice to either be blotted out of existence or to spend eternity in prison, which would you choose? Explain your choice.

This was not a theological question. This was an either or choice question. I would still pick "an eternity in prison". If the choice was between perishing or spending an eternity in your "hell", then my choice might be different. I absolutely do not think that people get a second chance at salvation after they die. Since I believe that people are dead after they die, it is not at all possible that I think they get a second chance for salvation after they die.

 

[Timotheos]

Hmm, how quickly they forget!

Sorry, I forgot. :dunce:

 

[IMJerusha]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timotheos View Post
But I will answer this one. No, I don't believe you need to believe in ECT or believe that ECT is false in order to be saved. You can only receive eternal life by faith in Jesus Christ, and not by believing that the wages of sin is ECT or by believing that the wages of sin is death. However, since the Bible says that the wages of sin is death, it would be prudent to believe that instead of the religious falsehood of ECT.

So then, this thread is merely an attempt to put forth your appeal to believe based upon your belief since there is Scripture to support both points of view......uh...yeah, that's what I'm trying to say. :chuckle:

 

[Timotheos]

I gave you my oath, Brother. I would, however, appreciate an answer to my question. Do you believe that the doctrine of ECT is a salvific issue?

Not to hold your feet to the fire or anything
But since I answered your question, my question to you was something like, "Do you believe that capital punishment in the form of lethal injection is punishment? Why or Why Not? And do you believe that the punishment is eternal or does the prisoner go free after he has had his injection?

 

[IMJerusha]

Sorry, I forgot. :dunce:

You'd better hope I never do. I'm not pretty when I get ugly! :darwinsm:

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3356644&postcount=516

 

[IMJerusha]

Not to hold your feet to the fire or anything
But since I answered your question, my question to you was something like, "Do you believe that capital punishment in the form of lethal injection is punishment? Why or Why Not? And do you believe that the punishment is eternal or does the prisoner go free after he has had his injection?

You are mixing apples with oranges, the judgment of this world with God's judgment. No can do.

 

[Timotheos]

You are mixing apples with oranges, the judgment of this world with God's judgment. No can do.

My question had nothing to do with God's Judgment.

Can I hold your feet to the fire just a little bit? I don't want you to have cold feet and not answer the question for that reason. If your feet were nice and warm, and someone asked you "What about that there lethal injection, is that punishment or is that aint a punishment?" What would you tell them? And would you think it's permanent? (Assuming you think it is a punishment, which I haven't been able to determine thus far)

 

[Timotheos]

So then, this thread is merely an attempt to put forth your appeal to believe based upon your belief since there is Scripture to support both points of view......uh...yeah, that's what I'm trying to say. :chuckle:

No, this thread is an attempt have a discussion about what the Bible actually says. Nobody is going to Hell for getting this wrong, anymore than they would go to Hell for answering "Romans!" to the question "Which book follows John in most Bibles?"

But I still think this is an important question. If God doesn't send people to an eternity of torment or torture or what have you, and you are going around telling people that He does, what does that say about the kind of God you have? And what would He think about you telling people this? Assuming for just a second that he doesn't send people to eternal conscious torment.

As an intellectual excercise, picture yourself as God, and you have no intention of sending anyone to eternal conscious torment. What do You think of the people who are telling everyone that You plan this?

 

[IMJerusha]

My question had nothing to do with God's Judgment.

Can I hold your feet to the fire just a little bit? I don't want you to have cold feet and not answer the question for that reason. If your feet were nice and warm, and someone asked you "What about that there lethal injection, is that punishment or is that aint a punishment?" What would you tell them? And would you think it's permanent? (Assuming you think it is a punishment, which I haven't been able to determine thus far)

Yes you may, as long as you go back and put the quote identifiers in here:
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3361946&postcount=879
Everyone should have warm feet!

Capital punishment is the result of man's judgment.
Eternal punishment is the result of God's judgment.
That is why I said you are trying to mix apples and oranges.

 

[Timotheos]

You don't believe Scripture, then. I don't believe that being constantly tormented by flames for ever and ever is any kind of life. It is constant destruction.

What in the world do you mean by "constant destruction"? Once a thing is destroyed, it is destroyed. It can't continue to be destroyed after it has been destroyed. If it can be destroyed after it has already been destroyed, then it wasn't destroyed the first time it was "destroyed". You torture the english language when you talk like this.

 

[IMJerusha]

No, this thread is an attempt have a discussion about what the Bible actually says. Nobody is going to Hell for getting this wrong, anymore than they would go to Hell for answering "Romans!" to the question "Which book follows John in most Bibles?"

But I still think this is an important question. If God doesn't send people to an eternity of torment or torture or what have you, and you are going around telling people that He does, what does that say about the kind of God you have? And what would He think about you telling people this? Assuming for just a second that he doesn't send people to eternal conscious torment.

As an intellectual excercise, picture yourself as God, and you have no intention of sending anyone to eternal conscious torment. What do You think of the people who are telling everyone that You plan this?

I think it should be more than about what the Bible says but what Yeshua spoke from His own mouth: "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." Matthew 25:46
Clearly He sends people to eternal punishment. The only thing left to haggle is whether one is conscious or not. I say yes, you say no.

Let me get something straight with you. The God I have is the God you have and don't you ever say otherwise!

If there is one thing I will NOT do it's put myself in the position of God for intellectual exercise or any other sort of exercise. I'm just not that stupid!

You need to get it through your head that while God loves us enough to send His only Son to die for us, He also has expectations and if we don't meet them, we're toast!
" And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name. This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus."

I don't give a flying flip if this image of God is acceptable to some folks or not.

 

[Timotheos]

Yes you may, as long as you go back and put the quote identifiers in here:
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3361946&postcount=879
Everyone should have warm feet!

Capital punishment is the result of man's judgment.
Eternal punishment is the result of God's judgment.
That is why I said you are trying to mix apples and oranges.

I guess its useless to ask questions of people who are trying to massage the language to fit their doctrine.

Is Capital punishment punishment, or isn't it?

 

[Timotheos]

I think it should be more than about what the Bible says but what Yeshua spoke from His own mouth: "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." Matthew 25:46
Clearly He sends people to eternal punishment. The only thing left to haggle is whether one is conscious or not. I say yes, you say no.

I agree. That's why I'm asking you if Capital Punishment is punishment or isn't punishment. If the person who said dying is not a punishment is correct, then you are absolutely correct, and the person has to be conscious throughout eternity, given eternal life by God for the sole purpose of feeling the torment. If the person who said dying is not a punishment is wrong, then dying becomes the eternal punishment. And then the Bible agrees with itself, because it says the wages of sin is death, the wicked perish and are no more, thees pay the penalty of eternal destruction, the lake of fire is the second death, and whoever believes in Him will not perish.

 

[Timotheos]

Let me get something straight with you. The God I have is the God you have and don't you ever say otherwise!

If there is one thing I will NOT do it's put myself in the position of God for intellectual exercise or any other sort of exercise. I'm just not that stupid!

I didn't ask in order to worship you or anything.

The point is: If God does not plan to send people to hell for all eternity to be tormented alive there forever after they are dead, and you go around telling people that He does plan to do this, then He might become angry with you for doing this.

So the question "Does He or doesn't He?" becomes a very important one. What does the Bible say? The wages of sin is death.

 

[IMJerusha]

I guess its useless to ask questions of people who are trying to massage the language to fit their doctrine.

Is Capital punishment punishment, or isn't it?

Again:
Capital punishment is the result of man's judgment.
Eternal punishment is the result of God's judgment.
You are discussing God's punishment. Therefore, man's punishment is moot in the discussion.

 

[IMJerusha]

I didn't ask in order to worship you or anything.

That's not the point. To put myself in the position of God is disrespectful to Him. What do you think He is going to think about you for suggesting it?

The point is: If God does not plan to send people to hell for all eternity to be tormented alive there forever after they are dead, and you go around telling people that He does plan to do this, then He might become angry with you for doing this.

And your point defies Scripture; defies Yeshua's own words.

 

[godrulz]

Tell me what you mean by "soul sleep".

You know what I believe? I believe that dead people really truly are dead, and Jesus Christ will resurrect everyone who is in the grave on the last day, and they will hear his voice and come out. The righteous, by which I mean - "those who have obtained Christ's Righteousness from Him" will come out to live, to have eternal life. And the unrighteous will come out of their graves to be condemned for their sins, since they refused to accept Christ's offer of the forgiveness of their sins. They will owe the wages of sin, which is death. They will be condemned to die the second death.

Now, don't tell me that I believe dead people actually "sleep", because I do not believe that AT ALL. Dead peopel are not asleep. If they were, you or I could wake them up. Only Jesus Christ can give life to the dead, and He will. And don't complain as some have complained, that I am not specific enough about my beliefs. I told you EXACTLY what I believe, which is not coincidentally also EXACTLY what the Bible teaches. Read John 5.

Guilty of SDA/JW soul sleep heresy. A wrong view of the soul leads to a wrong view of hell.

No, you are not JW or SDA, just argue like them.arty:

 

[godrulz]

If you had the choice to either be blotted out of existence or to spend eternity in prison, which would you choose? Explain your choice.

Can I have an iPhone and Bible in prison?