It should have:
Εἰσέλθατε διὰ τῆς στενῆς πύλης ὅτι πλατεῖα καὶ εὐρύχωρος ἡ ὁδὸς ἡ ἀπάγουσα εἰς τὴν ἀπώλειαν καὶ πολλοί εἰσιν οἱ εἰσερχόμενοι δι’ αὐτῆς·
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
It should have:
Εἰσέλθατε διὰ τῆς στενῆς πύλης ὅτι πλατεῖα καὶ εὐρύχωρος ἡ ὁδὸς ἡ ἀπάγουσα εἰς τὴν ἀπώλειαν καὶ πολλοί εἰσιν οἱ εἰσερχόμενοι δι’ αὐτῆς·
How is that NOT punishment?
:deadhorse:
Do you deny the Trinity or the Deity of Christ? If you reject that, your belief in Hell is irrelevant.
I affirm the Deity of Christ, and the Trinity. Even more, since I believe that Jesus Christ is the One who will return to judge and give eternal life or eternal death, it would not be possible to hold my position without believing that Jesus Christ is truly God.
That's right, and despite "Godrulz" attempts to paint us as heretics, no one has denied the Trinity.
These are nothing more than fallacies designed to trick others into believing that we are wrong. The question is "What does the Bible say? Does it support ECTism or not?" Even if there are heretics in the world, the Word of God does not change. And it doesn't say anywhere in Scripture that the lost go to hell when they die where they are tormented alive forever while they are dead. However, God's Word does say that the wicked will perish and will be no more.
Thanks Steve, I'm glad you asked because it is important.
This would happen at the final judgment and not before the judgment, which would be unjust. And Jesus said that the body and soul can be destroyed in gehenna's fire, and the Bible says that the wicked will be destroyed. It's good how all of this fits together, isn't it?
Here's your award :first:
Aimiel
Well-known member
An excellent point. :thumb:
Hold on Tim. Some folks croak before the Final Judgment. So there is consciousness for the wicked between physical death and the Final judgment or do you add soul sleep prior to your annihilationism?
How is it that we are spiritually dead before being saved, yet conscious, but cannot possibly be conscious eternally while physically dead?
I agree, it was.
Until I posted a more excellent rebuttal. If annihilation is not punishment, then why do we have punishment by lethal injection?
Aimiel
Well-known member
Because it IS punishment for temporal man. For body and soul, which stand before God in judgment: it would be nothing. They would simply not exist. That isn't punishment (especially eternal punishment); it is simply 'lights out' for them. For actual punishment to be eternal, they must still exist. Scripture makes this quite clear, but you resist Scripture, by calling it a proverb or vision. Those who take clues from God's Scriptures to see that which cannot be seen are quite clear that ECT is real and will take place. If God didn't want to share this fact with us He never would have even mentioned it in His Holy Word. He knows what to put in and what to leave out. His Word is Truth. ALL of His Word, not just the parts that support your religianity.
Tell me what you mean by "soul sleep".
You know what I believe? I believe that dead people really truly are dead, and Jesus Christ will resurrect everyone who is in the grave on the last day, and they will hear his voice and come out. The righteous, by which I mean - "those who have obtained Christ's Righteousness from Him" will come out to live, to have eternal life. And the unrighteous will come out of their graves to be condemned for their sins, since they refused to accept Christ's offer of the forgiveness of their sins. They will owe the wages of sin, which is death. They will be condemned to die the second death.
Now, don't tell me that I believe dead people actually "sleep", because I do not believe that AT ALL. Dead people are not asleep. If they were, you or I could wake them up. Only Jesus Christ can give life to the dead, and He will. And don't complain as some have complained, that I am not specific enough about my beliefs. I told you EXACTLY what I believe, which is also (not coincidentally)EXACTLY what the Bible teaches. Read John 5.
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Sorry pal, but I do not "resist scripture". I believe scripture. I don't believe the unscriptural things people are saying about the lost living forever being tormented in hell while they are dead. Read John 3:16.
Adios.
I just received your negative reps for saying "Sorry pal, but I do not "resist scripture". I believe scripture."
Perhaps I should have stated that differently, I don't believe that "pal" is a negative term. But let me try again.
My dear brother, it is a sin to bear false witness against another. I do not "resist scripture" as so quickly accused. I believe scripture. If you would be so kind as to point out the scripture that you believe I am resisting, perhaps we could both learn more about the scriptures. Thank you for your consideration. As you know, the wages of sin is death. Neither of us wants you to die as a result of this breaking of the commandment "Thou shalt not bear false witness." We should bring this matter to a speedy conclusion. Don't you agree?
Hoping you are well,
Timotheos
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Zeke
Well-known member
What part of Paul will be destroyed in this fire in Romans seven? the innerman (new man) doesn't always reflect its will over the (oldman) the flesh, the struggle against it is part of the path, everyone will have this experience because its part of the journey to the more excellent way where the Spirit overcomes the flesh with the flaming sword of Love which lets you pass through and partake of the tree of life within..
If we judge our self righteous while condemning others we are still falling short of true rest and peace within, Cains ego still guides the ship, which is religion, and their doctrines and books throw you, the newman, in the fire along with the oldman but doesn't allow you to get out once your in, the Spirit (Able) does, and shows you the path that can overcome that ego through many fires and resurrections if needed until that fear, hate, arrogance, elitistism, dogmas, etc..... no longer holds your mind in bondage to them.
Its all ancient science dealing with the human brain, the holy of holies, in a temple made without hands the kingdom of God the human body.
Doormat
New member
If you had the choice to either be blotted out of existence or to spend eternity in prison, which would you choose? Explain your choice.
IMJerusha
New member
Quote:
However, God's Word does say that the wicked will perish and will be no more.
Excuse me Steve, but who's quote is this?
Doormat
New member
That implies you think the sins of a murder are worse than your sins. Consider reading 1 John 3:15 and Luke 13:2-5.
Note in the Luke passage that Jesus tells them if they don't repent they will "perish" (ἀπόλλυμι).
622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy") – properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).
622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction" (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.
[This is also the meaning of 622 /apóllymi dating back to Homer (900 bc.)]
622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction" (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.
[This is also the meaning of 622 /apóllymi dating back to Homer (900 bc.)]