Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
*
I meet people who cannot bear even the name of Jesus, some become violently angry. These will not share eternity with Him unless they repent.

While we have people misrepresenting the character of God, then we will have people rejecting Him without cause, and remember that most people think Christians are Roman Catholics who teach you must join them and believe their doctrines and keep ther practices or you will be tortured in hell forever.


LA
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
Not so...
Really? He is above all, in my Bible. There isn't even any beside Him.

Deuteronomy 4:35
Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the Lord he is God; there is none else beside him.

Deuteronomy 4:39
Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the Lord he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

If God were subject to time, time would be God, not The Lord. He is above time and space.
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
Father, Son, Holy Spirit is biblical, historical, orthodox. Are you a modalist?
Traditionalist. Believer. Disciple. Follower. Worshiper. Servant. Friend. Member.

For now... we have need of Baptist, Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, Episcopalian, African Methodist Episcopal, Coptic, Mormon, Muslim, Buddhist, Voodoo, Satanist, Goth and even Zombie. One day, when Christians awaken to who they are and Whom they serve they will begin to hear the trumpet and become united under His Banner of Love. Until then, we have differences, which serve to bring God into light in men's hearts and minds through controversy and agreement here and there. The Father did send His Son and He sent The Holy Spirit and they do agree in One, but our God doesn't fit into a formula and cannot be pinned down to being triune or even septune. He is beyond our current ability to comprehend or describe. The One Who came down from Heaven did show us The Father, Who is Love, but if you call your god, "The Love God," I will not bow to it, since it is now an idol of your creation, since you gave it a name that God didn't approve. He calls Himself by The Name which He prefers: Lord. He doesn't approve of men's titles which they make for Him. Their little crowns they make for Him don't fit.
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
*
I meet people who cannot bear even the name of Jesus, some become violently angry. These will not share eternity with Him unless they repent.
Next time you do so: cast the devil out of them and give them the gospel message. They'll join us in the cause here and now.
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
ECT meltdown.......

ECT meltdown.......

Hell is not a medieval torture chamber, but a place of separation/selfishness away from the saints in heaven and on earth.

The are still problems with ECT, on multiple levels.

However you sugar-coat it,....eternal punishment or torment, especially in a lake of fire, or a state of agony or suffering from being somehow "seperate" from 'God'...without 'God' intervening in anyway to alleviate or remedy such suffering....is similar to a medieval torture chamber or worse, with 'God' being the torturer. This is a scenario that is hard to wiggle your way out of.

Beyond such assumptions or beliefs.....there is only speculation of future possible states, conditions or punishments....as well as theories about 'heaven' or 'hell'. Universal laws of cause & effect (karma) and the attributes of God's character forever remain in their attitude and relationships to souls. - as long as souls are conscious and alive...the way is ever open for them to advance, progress, ascend, repent, change their perspective, avail themselves of God's love, call on His name, etc.....for this is ever God's will.

~*~*~

A so-called 'biblical' view is limited by its own 'pre-scription' and the various interpretations of persons or denominations who use the 'bible' as their 'text-book'.

Greater knowledge on the Afterlife and destiny of souls is available thru other schools of knowledge, spirit-communications, channeled writings, Near Death Experiences (NDEs), Out of Body Experiences (OBEs), parapsychological studies, psychical research, and more.


pj
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
While we have people misrepresenting the character of God, then we will have people rejecting Him without cause, and remember that most people think Christians are Roman Catholics who teach you must join them and believe their doctrines and keep ther practices or you will be tortured in hell forever.


LA

Trinity, hell, Deity of Christ, etc. are biblical vs pagan or RC exclusive doctrines. Catholics have extra/contrabiblical distinctives, but they are also correct about things like the resurrection of Christ, His virgin conception, etc.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Really? He is above all, in my Bible. There isn't even any beside Him.

Deuteronomy 4:35
Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the Lord he is God; there is none else beside him.

Deuteronomy 4:39
Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the Lord he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

If God were subject to time, time would be God, not The Lord. He is above time and space.

Using your logic, God is subject to love, love would be God, and He is above love.

God is ontologically distinct from creation, so pantheism is wrong. Time is not something God is subject to, but it is an aspect of His personal experience. You cannot show me timelessness in Scripture (it is Platonic, Augustinian philosophy). Every page of Scripture shows duration, sequence, succession=time in the divine experience.

The triune vs solitary nature of God is revealed in Scripture. Quit being so subjective, super spiritual, etc. and get grounded in sound doctrine. The triune view is defensible from Scripture even if we do not understand it exhaustively with finite minds. Just as you can know that Jesus is YHWH, so you can know that Arianism, modalism, Unitarianism, polytheism, Islam, etc. are all false.
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Trinity, hell, Deity of Christ, etc. are biblical vs pagan or RC exclusive doctrines. Catholics have extra/contrabiblical distinctives, but they are also correct about things like the resurrection of Christ, His virgin conception, etc.

I see where you learnt from.

You are in error concerning hell, concerning the diety of Christ (which you say He left aside to be a man but somehow still had it, but then was given it????)

Trinity is pagan from the Platonists.

So there is not much you have right.

Man is not everlasting. The saved of mankind are only given immortality at the resurrection and even Christ Himself was given the same, as the first born from the dead.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

So no, mankind is not everlasting without Christ to make it so.

Of course you can not accept that Christ died because then your whole pack of cards falls down.

One error leads to the other when you learn from men.

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/verses/john-3-13

LA
 

Timotheos

New member
By this point, its obvious that I believe that the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment is Unbiblical.

The reason I believe this is simple. There is not even one verse in the Bible that says that the wicked will go to hell when they die where they are to by tormented alive for all eternity while they are dead.

But there are a multitude of verses that all say the wicked will perish and will be no more as a result of their sins.
1
Matt 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
This says destruction, not eternal torment.

2
Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Body and Soul will be destroyed in hell. Not burned alive forever in hell.

3
Matthew 13:30
First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up,
The greek word that is used is katakausai, which comes from katakaio, and it means to consume by burning, burn down. The tares are gone after they burned. The meaning is the same as in the last 2 verses, that the wicked will be destroyed. As Jesus says in verse 40,
So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.

Just as the tares are destroyed by burning, the wicked people will be destroyed by burning, at the end of the age.

4
Luke 13:3
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Here, the greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which comes from the word apollumi, and means "to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish. Apoleisthe is the future tense form of apollumi which means will be utterly destroyed or will be killed.
What apoleisthe does not mean is "will be tortured alive forever."

Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those in the days of Noah (Matthew 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all" (not tortured).
and it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29) "destroyed them" (not tortured).

5
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
So either a person receives eternal life, or they perish. They die. They are not burned alive forever, they just perish.

6
John 5:24, Jesus said
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
He has passed from death into life, eternal life. Jesus did not say 'Whoever believes has passed from eternal life being tortured in hell to eternal life with no torture'.

7
John 8:21
Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."
Jesus said they would die in their sin, not be burned alive forever.

8
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Note: Death, not eternal torment.

9
1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
Destroy, not torture alive forever.

10
Galations 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish.
The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.

11
2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Destruction, not eternal living torment. The greek word is olethron: destruction.
From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.

12
Hebrews 10:26-27,
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES
Here it says the fire consumes the adversaries. They are burned up, not eternally alive and burning, but consumed.

13
Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.


14
James 1:15
and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
Death, not eternal torture.

15
James 4:12
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;
Destroy, not eternally torture.

16
2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
Destruction, not eternal torment.

17
2 Peter 3:7-9
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Peter tells what will happen to ungodly men, they will be judged and then destroyed. All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.

18
1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
How can those without life be living forever in a lake of fire?

19
Jude 5
Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

20
Jude 10
But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.

21
Revelation 2:11
He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.

22
Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.

23
Revelation 18:8
For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.
The greek word katakauthesetai comes from katakaio and means utterly burnt up, destroyed, not eternally burned alive. (The greek is future passive indicative tense, therefore it is the word katakauthesetai).

24
Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
John interprets this for us, the lake of fire is the second death. If anyones name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death. It is not eternal living torment.

25
Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead.

The proof is written in large letters throughout the bible. After the first sin, what was the promised consequence? God said that it was death. God didn't tell them that they would be given eternal life being tormented in hell. If eternal torture in hell is the consequence, it is jarringly missing from any statement by God to Adam and Eve. God even barred Adam and Eve from the garden to prevent them eating from the tree of life and living forever. Paul explains this: Romans 6:23, The wages of sin is death. This is obvious, Paul said what the wages of sin is and it is not to be burned alive forever after you are dead.

26
Ezekiel 18:4 The soul who sins will die.

27
Psalm 1:4-6
Not so the wicked!
They are like chaff
that the wind blows away.
Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked leads to destruction.

28
Psalm 2:11-12
Serve the LORD with fear
and celebrate his rule with trembling.
Kiss his son, or he will be angry
and your way will lead to your destruction,

29
Psalm 5:6
you destroy those who tell lies.

30
Psalm 9:3
My enemies turn back;
they stumble and perish before you.

31
Psalm 9:5
You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.

32
Psalm 9:6
even the memory of them has perished.

33
Psalm 21:9
When you appear for battle,
you will burn them up as in a blazing furnace.
The LORD will swallow them up in his wrath,
and his fire will consume them.

34
Psalm 34:16
but the face of the LORD is against those who do evil,
to blot out their name from the earth.

35
Psalm 36:12
See how the evildoers lie fallen—
thrown down, not able to rise!

36
Psalm 37:1-2
Do not fret because of those who are evil
or be envious of those who do wrong;
for like the grass they will soon wither,
like green plants they will soon die away.

37
Psalm 37:9
For those who are evil will be destroyed,

38
Psalm 37:20
But the wicked will perish:
Though the LORD’s enemies are like the flowers of the field,
they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke.

39
Psalm 37:22
those he curses will be destroyed

40
Psalm 37:28
Wrongdoers will be completely destroyed

41
Psalm 37:34
when the wicked are destroyed, you will see it.

42
Psalm 37:38
But all sinners will be destroyed;
there will be no future for the wicked.

43
Malachi 4:1-3
For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the LORD of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.” “But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the LORD of hosts.

44
Isaiah 66:16
For the LORD will execute judgment by fire
And by His sword on all flesh,
And those slain by the LORD will be many.

45 and 46
Genesis 2:17 and 3:19
but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die...
And to dust you shall return. (Genesis 5:5 Adam lived 930 years, and then he died.)

47
Psalm 49:12-14
But man in his pomp will not endure;
He is like the beasts that perish.
This is the way of those who are foolish,
And of those after them who approve their words.
As sheep they are appointed for Sheol;
Death shall be their shepherd;
And the upright shall rule over them in the morning,
And their form shall be for Sheol to consume
So that they have no habitation.

48
Psalm 50:22
Now consider this, you who forget God,
Or I will tear you in pieces, and there will be none to deliver.

49
Psalm 54:5
He will recompense the evil to my foes;
Destroy them in Your faithfulness.

50
Psalm 56:13
For You have delivered my soul from death,
Indeed my feet from stumbling,
So that I may walk before God
In the light of the living.

51
2 Corinthians 15-16
For we are a fragrance of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing; to the one an aroma from death to death, to the other an aroma from life to life.

52
for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2 Cor 3:6

53
2 Cor 7:10
For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
You have assumed one definition of perish, death, etc. You have taken verses out of context. Some refer to physical death, while others are about spiritual or eternal death.

None of your verses pose a problem for the traditional view just as none of the Arian proof texts are a problem for trinitarians (their texts create a contradiction with many other texts because of a wrong view on the trinity, Deity of Christ, etc.).

Wrong assumptions about death, soul, perishing, punishment, etc. will lead to wrong conclusions.
 

IMJerusha

New member
By this point, its obvious that I believe that the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment is Unbiblical.

The reason I believe this is simple. There is not even one verse in the Bible that says that the wicked will go to hell when they die where they are to by tormented alive for all eternity while they are dead.

But there are a multitude of verses that all say the wicked will perish and will be no more as a result of their sins.
1
Matt 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
This says destruction, not eternal torment.

2
Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Body and Soul will be destroyed in hell. Not burned alive forever in hell.

3
Matthew 13:30
First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up,
The greek word that is used is katakausai, which comes from katakaio, and it means to consume by burning, burn down. The tares are gone after they burned. The meaning is the same as in the last 2 verses, that the wicked will be destroyed. As Jesus says in verse 40,
So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.

Just as the tares are destroyed by burning, the wicked people will be destroyed by burning, at the end of the age.

4
Luke 13:3
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Here, the greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which comes from the word apollumi, and means "to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish. Apoleisthe is the future tense form of apollumi which means will be utterly destroyed or will be killed.
What apoleisthe does not mean is "will be tortured alive forever."

Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those in the days of Noah (Matthew 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all" (not tortured).
and it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29) "destroyed them" (not tortured).

5
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
So either a person receives eternal life, or they perish. They die. They are not burned alive forever, they just perish.

6
John 5:24, Jesus said
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
He has passed from death into life, eternal life. Jesus did not say 'Whoever believes has passed from eternal life being tortured in hell to eternal life with no torture'.

7
John 8:21
Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."
Jesus said they would die in their sin, not be burned alive forever.

8
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Note: Death, not eternal torment.

9
1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
Destroy, not torture alive forever.

10
Galations 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish.
The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.

11
2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Destruction, not eternal living torment. The greek word is olethron: destruction.
From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.

12
Hebrews 10:26-27,
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES
Here it says the fire consumes the adversaries. They are burned up, not eternally alive and burning, but consumed.

13
Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.


14
James 1:15
and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
Death, not eternal torture.

15
James 4:12
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;
Destroy, not eternally torture.

16
2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
Destruction, not eternal torment.

17
2 Peter 3:7-9
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Peter tells what will happen to ungodly men, they will be judged and then destroyed. All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.

18
1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
How can those without life be living forever in a lake of fire?

19
Jude 5
Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

20
Jude 10
But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.

21
Revelation 2:11
He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.

22
Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.

23
Revelation 18:8
For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.
The greek word katakauthesetai comes from katakaio and means utterly burnt up, destroyed, not eternally burned alive. (The greek is future passive indicative tense, therefore it is the word katakauthesetai).

24
Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
John interprets this for us, the lake of fire is the second death. If anyones name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death. It is not eternal living torment.

25
Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead.

The proof is written in large letters throughout the bible. After the first sin, what was the promised consequence? God said that it was death. God didn't tell them that they would be given eternal life being tormented in hell. If eternal torture in hell is the consequence, it is jarringly missing from any statement by God to Adam and Eve. God even barred Adam and Eve from the garden to prevent them eating from the tree of life and living forever. Paul explains this: Romans 6:23, The wages of sin is death. This is obvious, Paul said what the wages of sin is and it is not to be burned alive forever after you are dead.

26
Ezekiel 18:4 The soul who sins will die.

27
Psalm 1:4-6
Not so the wicked!
They are like chaff
that the wind blows away.
Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked leads to destruction.

28
Psalm 2:11-12
Serve the LORD with fear
and celebrate his rule with trembling.
Kiss his son, or he will be angry
and your way will lead to your destruction,

29
Psalm 5:6
you destroy those who tell lies.

30
Psalm 9:3
My enemies turn back;
they stumble and perish before you.

31
Psalm 9:5
You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.

32
Psalm 9:6
even the memory of them has perished.

33
Psalm 21:9
When you appear for battle,
you will burn them up as in a blazing furnace.
The LORD will swallow them up in his wrath,
and his fire will consume them.

34
Psalm 34:16
but the face of the LORD is against those who do evil,
to blot out their name from the earth.

35
Psalm 36:12
See how the evildoers lie fallen—
thrown down, not able to rise!

36
Psalm 37:1-2
Do not fret because of those who are evil
or be envious of those who do wrong;
for like the grass they will soon wither,
like green plants they will soon die away.

37
Psalm 37:9
For those who are evil will be destroyed,

38
Psalm 37:20
But the wicked will perish:
Though the LORD’s enemies are like the flowers of the field,
they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke.

39
Psalm 37:22
those he curses will be destroyed

40
Psalm 37:28
Wrongdoers will be completely destroyed

41
Psalm 37:34
when the wicked are destroyed, you will see it.

42
Psalm 37:38
But all sinners will be destroyed;
there will be no future for the wicked.

43
Malachi 4:1-3
For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the LORD of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.” “But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the LORD of hosts.

44
Isaiah 66:16
For the LORD will execute judgment by fire
And by His sword on all flesh,
And those slain by the LORD will be many.

45 and 46
Genesis 2:17 and 3:19
but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die...
And to dust you shall return. (Genesis 5:5 Adam lived 930 years, and then he died.)

47
Psalm 49:12-14
But man in his pomp will not endure;
He is like the beasts that perish.
This is the way of those who are foolish,
And of those after them who approve their words.
As sheep they are appointed for Sheol;
Death shall be their shepherd;
And the upright shall rule over them in the morning,
And their form shall be for Sheol to consume
So that they have no habitation.

48
Psalm 50:22
Now consider this, you who forget God,
Or I will tear you in pieces, and there will be none to deliver.

49
Psalm 54:5
He will recompense the evil to my foes;
Destroy them in Your faithfulness.

50
Psalm 56:13
For You have delivered my soul from death,
Indeed my feet from stumbling,
So that I may walk before God
In the light of the living.

51
2 Corinthians 15-16
For we are a fragrance of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing; to the one an aroma from death to death, to the other an aroma from life to life.

52
for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2 Cor 3:6

53
2 Cor 7:10
For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.

All of which are wiped out with Matthew 25:41-46
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me. Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.' ”
 

Timotheos

New member
All of which are wiped out with Matthew 25:41-46
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me. Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.' ”
Excuse me? How does Jesus saying some go to eternal life and some go to eternal punishment wipe out any of the verses I posted? Are you assuming that eternal punishment HAS to be eternal torment? Matthew 25:46 doesn't say that. I believe in eternal punishment. And as I have shown, the eternal punishment is death.
 

chrysostom

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Excuse me? How does Jesus saying some go to eternal life and some go to eternal punishment wipe out any of the verses I posted? Are you assuming that eternal punishment HAS to be eternal torment? Matthew 25:46 doesn't say that. I believe in eternal punishment. And as I have shown, the eternal punishment is death.

welcome back
 

Timotheos

New member
You have assumed one definition of perish, death, etc.
No, I use the regular definition of death. Death means "not alive". Death doesn't mean alive, if that's what you are suggesting.

You have taken verses out of context.
No, I haven't. You can look at the context yourself and see that the context of the verse agrees with what the verse says.

Some refer to physical death, while others are about spiritual or eternal death.
That's your assumption speaking, not the Bible. The verses I posted even say "the wicked will be no more". you can't claim that refers to the wicked continuing to exist forever in hell being tormented forever.

None of your verses pose a problem for the traditional view
What? The verses I posted disprove the traditional view, that poses a big problem for the traditional view, since it is now debunked.

just as none of the Arian proof texts are a problem for trinitarians (their texts create a contradiction with many other texts because of a wrong view on the trinity, Deity of Christ, etc.).
If you want to talk about "Arian proof texts" start another thread.
I believe in the trinity. I believe in the Deity of Jesus Christ. None of your objections are a problem for the truth of the Bible which I have presented.

Wrong assumptions about death, soul, perishing, punishment, etc. will lead to wrong conclusions.
If you believe that "death" means continuing to live, then you have the wrong assumption about death. That's what led to your wrong conclusion. If you believe that the Bible says that "death" means "continuing to live forever", please post the verse that says that. You have not presented any scriptural support for your false view.
 

Timotheos

New member
hell is an important part of their belief system
but
what they are really looking for
is
someone to send there

"Who will go for us?"And I said, "Lord, I'll go! Send me." And he said, "Yes, go."
Isaiah 6, part of verse 8 and part of verse 9. NLT, taken completely out of context. :devil:
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
The facts of eternal punishment seems harsh, to those who don't realize that The Lord is more just than we are and has far greater understanding than we ever could. Apologists for God attempt to make their idol fit their thoughts on who and what their ideas of God are but God gave us clear ideas of exactly Who He is and what will happen after His Judgments are given. Postulating that His Word doesn't really mean what it says will continue for all those who are out-of-touch with Him and is really no surprise.
 
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