You don't know what similes and metaphors are, do you?
The word "like" shows that it is a simile; "...the glory of the LORD was like devouring fire..."
Where? Where does it say that?
None of your business.
You're a joke.
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
The word "like" shows that it is a simile; "...the glory of the LORD was like devouring fire..."
Only if you were there and then.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
research and re-read the writings......
research and re-read the writings......
Hi Stan,
I've more than amply explained my viewpoints and all the implication and problems with different perspectives, and also that much is 'speculation' as well. I've given you the links to all previous posts in this very thread, as well the links in them, that cover other resources that touch on this subject like 'The Urantia Papers', 'James E Padgett messages', 'Spiritism', etc. Each school has their own point of view in the context of their own teaching,...with term, meanings, values, etc.
Until you really read my commentaries and learn the info. for yourself, our dialogue will suffer from lack of comprehension. I'm not trying to prove anything 'biblical' as if that 'label' really means anything, since I dont see the Bible as the only authority on these subjects. Its one book among several thousands.
Its all a matter of interpretation, so it is 'figurative' on many levels. My former post and it pertinent points here on the parable in Matt. still holds.
No proof of this beyond some literal assumption that it is so. As shared previously, a soul can only suffer as long as it continues to sin, as per the law of karma, which is an equal/proportionate compensation of cause/effect, action and consequence. An eternity of punishment for temporal sins is unjust, and a 'god' inflicting an eternal punishment upon conscious beings giving them no opportunity for repentance or salvation is barbaric to say the least.
There is ample, if you want to use the Bible as a 'proof-text'. However, I'm not limited to the Bible, and obviously glean my knowledge from a variety of sources, schools and religious traditions, being a more liberal eclectic spiritualist. A variety of passages can be used to support 'soul-death' of the wicked, a true perishing of an individual. - such is a termination of individual existence and that soul-unit's potential of life and personality-expression, a dis-integration of being.
Depends on what school of thought you espouse and metaphysical understanding or 'belief' you have about the soul. Points of view are subject to change when better knowledge dawns.
Even besides the concept of 'soul-death'....I've already shared on the injustice, senselessness and insanity of a 'god' imposing an eternity of torment and punishment upon souls to no end.
God allows mortals to suffer the journey of human existence within physical bodies (incarnations) so they can grow, experience, evolve, develop, learn, and prosper according to the law of progress. Love would never condemn a soul to an eternal state of punishment or torment, nor will such upon any sentient being! Such is neither just, loving or moral. Such a view is illogical to love, and antithetical to the divine will.
I see eternal life continuing thru-out all space and time, in this and all worlds wherever a soul's heart and destiny calls it to sojourn. Eternal life is just that, having the quality and essence of the eternal. A soul having immortality, shares in the immortal nature of 'God' for 'God' alone is immortal in nature, the source and substance of life itself, the source of consciousness.
All my previous commentaries speak for themselves, so will not continue to repeat myself beyond fairness or fatigue, when these points and inquiries have been amply covered. Beyond philosophical considerations, principles, reason, intellectual honesty, intelligent research into these matters, all else is mere speculation, opinion or 'belief', and that is all. It cannot be proven to be anything more than that.
pj
research and re-read the writings......
Hi Stan,
I've more than amply explained my viewpoints and all the implication and problems with different perspectives, and also that much is 'speculation' as well. I've given you the links to all previous posts in this very thread, as well the links in them, that cover other resources that touch on this subject like 'The Urantia Papers', 'James E Padgett messages', 'Spiritism', etc. Each school has their own point of view in the context of their own teaching,...with term, meanings, values, etc.
Until you really read my commentaries and learn the info. for yourself, our dialogue will suffer from lack of comprehension. I'm not trying to prove anything 'biblical' as if that 'label' really means anything, since I dont see the Bible as the only authority on these subjects. Its one book among several thousands.
Its all a matter of interpretation, so it is 'figurative' on many levels. My former post and it pertinent points here on the parable in Matt. still holds.
No proof of this beyond some literal assumption that it is so. As shared previously, a soul can only suffer as long as it continues to sin, as per the law of karma, which is an equal/proportionate compensation of cause/effect, action and consequence. An eternity of punishment for temporal sins is unjust, and a 'god' inflicting an eternal punishment upon conscious beings giving them no opportunity for repentance or salvation is barbaric to say the least.
There is ample, if you want to use the Bible as a 'proof-text'. However, I'm not limited to the Bible, and obviously glean my knowledge from a variety of sources, schools and religious traditions, being a more liberal eclectic spiritualist. A variety of passages can be used to support 'soul-death' of the wicked, a true perishing of an individual. - such is a termination of individual existence and that soul-unit's potential of life and personality-expression, a dis-integration of being.
Depends on what school of thought you espouse and metaphysical understanding or 'belief' you have about the soul. Points of view are subject to change when better knowledge dawns.
Even besides the concept of 'soul-death'....I've already shared on the injustice, senselessness and insanity of a 'god' imposing an eternity of torment and punishment upon souls to no end.
God allows mortals to suffer the journey of human existence within physical bodies (incarnations) so they can grow, experience, evolve, develop, learn, and prosper according to the law of progress. Love would never condemn a soul to an eternal state of punishment or torment, nor will such upon any sentient being! Such is neither just, loving or moral. Such a view is illogical to love, and antithetical to the divine will.
I see eternal life continuing thru-out all space and time, in this and all worlds wherever a soul's heart and destiny calls it to sojourn. Eternal life is just that, having the quality and essence of the eternal. A soul having immortality, shares in the immortal nature of 'God' for 'God' alone is immortal in nature, the source and substance of life itself, the source of consciousness.
All my previous commentaries speak for themselves, so will not continue to repeat myself beyond fairness or fatigue, when these points and inquiries have been amply covered. Beyond philosophical considerations, principles, reason, intellectual honesty, intelligent research into these matters, all else is mere speculation, opinion or 'belief', and that is all. It cannot be proven to be anything more than that.
pj
How about this one then, since you didnt like Jesus words.
Romans 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
I see, so are you saying that if Jesus had said "destruction" or "perish", then the punishment would be destruction or perishing, and not eternal conscious torment?
Well, Jesus said in Matthew 7:13 that the road is wide that leads to DESTRUCTION, and He said in Luke 13:3 that unless they repent they will likewise PERISH.
Just why EXACTLY do you think Jesus said "destruction", "perish" and "eternal punishment" and not "eternal torment"?
I have thought about it. Jesus said that He is returning, and everyone who is dead and in their graves will hear his voice and come out of their graves for judgment. Those who are in Christ will receive no condemnation, they will receive eternal life. Those who rejected Jesus Christ will pay the penalty for their own sins. The Bible says the wages of sin is death. Those who rejected Jesus Christ will go to their second death after the resurrection and judgment.
John 5:21-30
Romans 8:1
Romans 6:23
It seems old Timmy doesn't want to debate with me anymore. What's the matter? Unable to refute the Scripture I posted?
That's true, I really don't. Life's too short to argue with you guys.
But, why don't you check the scriptures you posted yourself? I know that they don't say that people go to hell when they die where they are to be tormented alive forever while they are dead.
And since the Bible says that the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23)
The wicked will perish (Psalm 37:20) ,
The wicked will be no more (Psalm 37:10),
Those who do not believe in the Son of God will perish (John 3:16),
and they will pay the penalty of eternal destruction (2 Thess 1:9)
It seems senseless to look for some other fate, such as eternal conscious torment.
But, go ahead and believe in Eternal Conscious Torment if that makes you happy. All I want for you is your happiness.
StanJ53
New member
Yes that is correct. I prefer Merriam-Webster's definition, with the connotation; of or relating to the transcendent or to a reality beyond what is perceptible to the senses.
This is the sense and connotation with which I use it here.
StanJ53
New member
Hi PJ,
Like I said, I know all these arguments. I don't need to read them. I need to know where you are coming from. However you did make a statement that gives me a good idea so I don't believe we have much to discuss as we do NOT have any common ground. I believe in the inerrant word of God, and you don't. I am a Christian and apparently you are not.
That you need to obscure where you are philosophically coming from, makes it impossible to have an open and honest discussion.
You cannot possibly KNOW what God thinks or what His intentions are if you don't have the Holy Spirit residing in you, and you don't if you don't believe that His Holy Scriptures are the ONLY arbitrator we have to guide us.
Not sure what you expect from a CHRISTIAN forum, but there it is.
C ya!
:Nineveh:
oatmeal
Well-known member
Amen!
God is love and perfect love casts out fear because fear has torment! I John 4:18
oatmeal
StanJ53
New member
Context, context, context.
The verses you quote have to do with physical destruction, death.
What Jesus talked about in Matthew 25 had to do with the meta-physical realm. You're comparing apples to oranges. Jesus always says what He means. It's up to us to read it with understanding and the Holy Spirit. Context is of utmost importance when practising proper Hermenuetical Exegesis.
Jesus is coming back ONLY for His church, NOT for dead sinners. 1 Thess 4:15-18 and 1 Cor 15:51-53
The judgment seat of Christ will happens over a 1000 years later when ALL remaining dead will be resurrected and judged by Jesus.
Rev 20:11-15
Some of your proof texts are not didactic and apply to physical death in relation to the earth. They are not a NT developed doctrine on the after life (Christians have more detail than the Jews did).
Another problem is that words have a semantical range of meaning. You beg the question/circular reasoning with your pet definition while ignoring other ones that fit the context/all relevant verses better.
A wrong view of soul/spirit/death also leads to wrong conclusions about hell, etc.
Your view takes rationalization and mental gymnastics and should be rejected.
The rapture is the invisible return of Christ for the Church. The Bema Seat/Judgment Seat of Christ happens in heaven during the 7 year Tribulation on earth. Our sins were judged at the cross, so it is a judgment of works relating to rewards/loss rewards/stewardship. Christ then visibly comes at the end of the Trib with the Church. The Great White Throne judgment (not the Bema Seat of Cor.) is primarily the unregenerate lost (and some millennial saints) at the end of the 1000 years. It is mostly a judgment of sins (and works) leading to the lake of fire for most.
Okay, Go ahead and believe whatever makes you happy. Jesus didn't SAY "I'm talking about the metaphysical realm."
You (or somebody) asked me "Why didn't Jesus say 'destruction' or 'death' if that's what he meant. I showed you that he did. But go ahead and believe the lost are tortured forever if that's what makes you happy.
You are assuming one definition of destruction/death that is not necessarily valid in this discussion. You are making the mistake that JWs make to assume that Sheol/Hades only ever refers to the common grave of man, one possible definition, but not the only one in Scripture. Death/destruction is not a definite argument for your view or against ECT.
Zeke
Well-known member
Speaking of being honest! Bring your archaeology that proves the bible is a factual and literal documentation of history, it's becoming more and more obvious it doesn't exist like every was led to believe, its a book of inner science just like the hero Jesus told you its was, seek ye the kingdom of god within the temple made without hands.
The reason the nation is becoming a police state, and a war monger is elitist attitudes like yours, time to humble your self and come down of your throne and mingle with the rest of Gods Children.
StanJ53
New member
NOT what the Bible says in Rev 1:7... ALL will SEE Him.
There is ONLY one judgment seat and that happens AFTER the 1000 year reign of Jesus and after the war with Gog and Magog. Rev 20:7-10
StanJ53
New member
God says it is and I for one believe Him. It appears you are not a Christian either so I don't expect you to accept it but your discounting it means absolutely nothing to Christian beliefs. Jesus was/is God, NOT a hero.
I don't speak for ANY state, I speak for God.
And you are assuming one definition of destruction/death that doesn't even mean destruction or death.
You are making the mistake that Mormons and Muslims make. Haven't I told you a dozen times that I'm not a JW, and it is offensive to keep comparing me to them?