The word for the life of an animal and the life of man (soul) is the same word.
What are you going to do about it?
LA
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
The word for the life of an animal and the life of man (soul) is the same word.
What are you going to do about it?
LA
I find that to be the case.
Actually, they think they can escape death at the last minute, or are suddenly afraid. Not every atheist is a jolly soul. Some like suffering so they can be reminded of morality. Reincarnation can be far worse. No God to punish, and a guaranteed afterlife. The afterlife has no God which can punish someone.
With such remarks, why should we?
Wrong, if someone doesn't know they are wicked, they will still suffer for being bad and not good.
He was trying to make a point. Do you think Hindus, and Jews are convinced by a god who can only deliver everlasting torment and not everlasting punishment?
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How is sleeping then being completely obliterated punishment? Again the atheist believes this life is it, is standing before God for a few being judged then being destroyed again (dying again) a punishment? What would be the point?
Actually I can read just fine. You are the one needing to insult me because you dont like what i am saying, and btw, what does sloopy mean, never heard that before.
If that's so, why are you still addressing me, if you think its good that i think you're wrong and not worth listening to?
Was the woman who was caught in adultery held accountable?
Jesus even said it Himself
John 15:22 "If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin.
Then it is you who is like Hitler, you hold people accountable for what they do not know and cannot understand. Then after that you claim they have no or little punishment, so you agree that the atheist is right that they will suffer nothing basically for ignoring God.
Wow, its so punishing to sleep.
So why would God create them just to destroy them? Your logic is unrealistic. Unless you do not believe God creates babies.
I see now you keep saying babies, when i said children, i guess you suppose there is no such thing as an accountable child, or an adult one.
According to your twisted logic, no one is saved unless their parents were. Thats messed up.
If they do not believe moses and the prophets neither will they believe though one rise from the dead.
StanJ53
New member
Well yes it is the same word. Are you saying all words mean only ONE thing or only have ONE connotation?
נפש nephesh
1) soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
a) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
b) living being
c) living being (with life in the blood)
d) the man himself, self, person or individual
e) seat of the appetites
f) seat of emotions and passions
Context means everything when reading the Bible. Is it your contention that the human soul dies?b) living being
c) living being (with life in the blood)
d) the man himself, self, person or individual
e) seat of the appetites
f) seat of emotions and passions
Is it you contention that Jesus was ONLY a man?
Do you love ice cream the same way you love your mother?
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
poetic language techniques.......
poetic language techniques.......
Hi Stan,
First see and understand my view on ECT with post links allocated here. (contains most of my previous posts in this thread on the subject at hand). Its a complex subject because it includes many other principles and implications concerning soul-destiny, and what determines the duration or punishment of sin, which is but the souls transgression of universal laws.
You write above concerning your reference to Matthew 25:46 as supporting 'everlasting torments/punishment'. I do NOT believe this is meant 'literally', because of all the reasons I've formerly written about.
Again, there is no grounds or proof that the meaning of 'eternal punishment' or 'eternal fire' is 'eternal conscious torment'. These are 'figurative' terms emphasizing the severity of the punishment, and can only be 'interpreted' as such, since we've already established the unjustness and insanity of God inflicting an 'eternal punishment' on souls to no end or resolve. Therefore these passages must be figuratively interpreted.
Furthermore, Matt. 25: 31-46, the parable of the sheep and goats, is 'figurative' employing 'poetic' language imports. It seems rather petty that souls would suffer with the devil and his angels for neglecting to serve other human beings, as the parable gives no clue to how terrible or often this sin would have to be committed by these souls to be subject to ETERNAL punishment. This exaggeration seems highly assumptive in nature, which points back to being a 'literary device' to emphasize the serverity of sin. - 'parables' in this sense are 'tools' of the writer to enforce his own theological concepts into the text.
pj
poetic language techniques.......
Hi Stan,
First see and understand my view on ECT with post links allocated here. (contains most of my previous posts in this thread on the subject at hand). Its a complex subject because it includes many other principles and implications concerning soul-destiny, and what determines the duration or punishment of sin, which is but the souls transgression of universal laws.
You write above concerning your reference to Matthew 25:46 as supporting 'everlasting torments/punishment'. I do NOT believe this is meant 'literally', because of all the reasons I've formerly written about.
Again, there is no grounds or proof that the meaning of 'eternal punishment' or 'eternal fire' is 'eternal conscious torment'. These are 'figurative' terms emphasizing the severity of the punishment, and can only be 'interpreted' as such, since we've already established the unjustness and insanity of God inflicting an 'eternal punishment' on souls to no end or resolve. Therefore these passages must be figuratively interpreted.
Furthermore, Matt. 25: 31-46, the parable of the sheep and goats, is 'figurative' employing 'poetic' language imports. It seems rather petty that souls would suffer with the devil and his angels for neglecting to serve other human beings, as the parable gives no clue to how terrible or often this sin would have to be committed by these souls to be subject to ETERNAL punishment. This exaggeration seems highly assumptive in nature, which points back to being a 'literary device' to emphasize the serverity of sin. - 'parables' in this sense are 'tools' of the writer to enforce his own theological concepts into the text.
pj
But only the Israelites were given those things.
They are sentient beings. Soul can apply to them, but not at the higher level of intelligence, image of God, etc. What they lack is an everlasting God-conscious spirit unique to man.
There are several uses for 'soul' depending on context. The JW mistake is to think there is only one meaning for soul, Sheol/Hades, etc.
You are still not reading correctly.
The point is that you are preaching a god of unceasing torture.
Punishment comes before being destroyed, and the way to see that is to understand that fire which burns up completely anything cast into it, is also very uncomfortable to stand near or in it first.
You insult yourself by your arguing your religious church beliefs against the Bible.
You even twist what you said yourself.
It is good that you do not want to listen to what I say, when you say I am a false witness.
Listen, if I wanted to unload on you and trap you in your own words it would be easy, but I am not like you.
So you dedeuce from that, that the Pharisees had no sin before Jesus spoke to them?
Never said that.
Children of the wicked will not be given eternal life because they might have died young.
and it is not given in scripture that the children of the wicked dying young will even be raised from the dead to stand in the judgment.
Never said that either.
If one ignores God, then there is punishment before annialation.
God created man and man creates babies from what God created them with.
You could ask why God created anyone to eternally torment them.(your belief, not mine)
There is no teaching in the entire bible concerning an age of accountability. It came about from humanism.
Do you really think it true that the children of the wicked who God destroyed in His wrath will all be saved, while their parents suffer in hell eternally in torment.
I never said that either. Obviously the subject is too difficult for you, so you fall back on simplistic church teachings of humanists.
1Ki 14:10 Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam, and will cut off from Jeroboam him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel, and will take away the remnant of the house of Jeroboam, as a man taketh away dung, till it be all gone.
1Ki 14:11 Him that dieth of Jeroboam in the city shall the dogs eat; and him that dieth in the field shall the fowls of the air eat: for the LORD hath spoken it.
1Ki 14:12 Arise thou therefore, get thee to thine own house: and when thy feet enter into the city, the child shall die.
1Ki 14:13 And all Israel shall mourn for him, and bury him: for he only of Jeroboam shall come to the grave, because in him there is found some good thing toward the LORD God of Israel in the house of Jeroboam.
LA
StanJ53
New member
Hi PJ,
Perhaps you can tell me what organization you belong to. I read all this stuff before many times. I'll get a better perspective from you telling me where you're coming from.
FYI, the actual context of the Biblical passages in question, is NOT figurative. Jesus was ministering to Jews, who knew what He was referring to. It was part of their belief system.
Context is everything. The Jews knew in Matthew 5, that bodies didn't go to hell. They got Jesus' point that it wasn't the hand or eye that caused you to sin, but your own heart. They were practising things they KNEW weren't viable in reality.
Eternal punishment is ONGOING. There is NO indication in scripture that the spirit/soul EVER dies. Death relates ONLY to the physical body, and does NOT relates to the meta-physical personification of who we are.
In Revelation, the lake of fire is a place of eternal destination and torment, not instant destruction and oblivion. Torment does NOT mean physical suffering. It connotes meta-physical grief based on the knowledge that you were wrong about God and now have to be eternally separated from who He is. His divine nature and presence. Without God, there is NO light, nor life in the physical sense, and NO future.
Eternal Life is just the opposite, and it will be on a NEW earth, with our regenerated, perfect and complete bodies.
I am not a JW neither do I learn from them.
Give some contexts where nephesh is not the same word for life of the animal as is for the life of man.
LA
StanJ53
New member
Exactly, that would be the SOUL or MIND that is your will. Animals do NOT realize they are alive, they are NOT sentient. They simply exist as life forms, no more so than plants and insects do.
Exodus 20:13 refers to mankind, NOT animals or anything else God gave Adam rule over. I don't have to ask God forgiveness for putting my dog down, but I cannot do the same with a human life.
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Wrong, i believe the torture is self inflicted.
no, i dont believe that? How can you say "no" to me saying what i believe?
No, its not ridiculous to suffer mental anguish over your own choices, people in this current life, know what that kind of suffering is everyday.
No, you did, where did i mention what kind of punishment happens while talking to you?
I believe its the kind Christ stated it was, weeping and gnashing of teeth - grinding them in the knowledge of how many times one could have received the truth, how many times they harmed themselves and others.