Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[everready]

My question remains.

i saw this statement by freelight.

ECT can be rejected on the premise of principle alone, besides all the different beliefs and interpretations of what 'hell' actually is, further complicated thru language translation.

and thought that he was rejecting what's written in Gods word..

everready

*edit: Does that answer your question?

 

[freelight]

Isnt this lovely?.....................

Isnt this lovely?.....................

Just a heads up everybody,...I reformatted my last response to JR, I forgot to put one of his sections in quotes. Now its easier to read.

its about guilt or innocence

you are guilty of the sins you have committed .

I think there is more to it.

there is nothing YOU can do to undo the sins you have committed.

There definitely is something you can do about it, and if there wasnt...whats the point of living? Living is about life-experience, LEARNING, trial & error, growth, innovation, evolution, eternal progression. REPENTANCE is the main thing you can do to change, and thats what the scriptures teach as well, besides common sense. You learn from your mistakes, reform, correct your ways, and continue on with life. YOU have to repent, no one can repent for you.

'Karma' means 'action'. - within it is the 'law of compensation',...every work produces its own effects, so naturally....when you repent of a sin, you CHANGE your mind/attitude about it, and TURN from it, and choose right, positive action(karma)...and then reap the benefits of such. - actually there is no other way, neither can anyone 'do the work' for you. Within all this, of course its all by God's grace, but you have your 'response-ability' within these contexts of choice and action.

all your good "karma" will not make you any less guilty of your sins.

See above. Perhaps you need to get beyond the 'guilt' and 'innocence' paradigm,...theres more to life.

without Jesus you remain guilty

Since I dont accept or subscribe to your 'guilt/innocence' dichotomy, it doesn't apply I've challenged the 'penal substitionary atonement model' elsewhere with my 'atonement without blood' commentaries, although other 'atonement' concepts are more rationally acceptable, at last conceptually speaking.

Part of the 'good news' is actually that you CAN REPENT, and enter into the kingdom of heaven, which is not a geographical location, but a condition of Spirit-Awareness. It would not be 'good news' if you had no power to do that, by the God-given powers within you, to accept the full potential and possibilities of heaven.....'here' and 'now'.

 

[freelight]

When's the last time you read Jude?

Some time ago, is there is a specific reference in mind?

 

[freelight]

Are you saying that this place called hell doesn't exist a place that was prepared for the devil and his angels?

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

everready

Actually this very embellished and parabolic chapter is particularly 'loaded' with statements about 'hellfire', etc.....and also contains the infamous Matt. 25:46 passage, we've addressed already. One must understand the meaning of 'aion', and that its a limited indefinite duration of time, an age or dispensation.

So,...I dont necessarily believe all that is in the gospels as being Jesus actual words, because we cant be 100 % certain what are his actual words, what is heresay, or what scribes wanted Jesus to say, or some blend therein. And if Jesus or any prophet teaches something that is contrary to true principles, ethics, common sense, logic or reason...being against one's own consience and the spirit of truth itself......it is to be rejected. You are responsible in the end, and have to live with your own 'conscience' and 'God'.

So, amid all the parables of Jesus, they are but teaching tools. One can translate them from literal or more figurative angles, but they must be 'interpreted' thru proper understanding and discernment.

 

[everready]

When's the last time you read Jude?

i misunderstood your question, were you referring to this?

Jude 1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.


everready

 

[JudgeRightly]

i misunderstood your question, were you referring to this?

Jude 1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.


everready

No, I was actually asking when you read through the book of Jude last. It's a fairly simple question.

 

[everready]

No, I was actually asking when you read through the book of Jude last. It's a fairly simple question.

Before you asked the question about a week ago why do you ask?

everready

 

[JudgeRightly]

Before you asked the question about a week ago why do you ask?

everready

Is hell an actual place?

 

[everready]

Is hell an actual place?

Where are you going with this?

everready

 

[JudgeRightly]

Where are you going with this?

everready

Currently, nowhere. I'm just asking questions.

 

[freelight]

Currently, nowhere. I'm just asking questions.

Thats good, but you originally addressed the question of Jude to my writing posted by everready, so assumed it was to me, but now it appears your question is for anybody? My last question about your question stands asking for clarity. I dont think Jude resolves much in any case. He quotes from the Book of Enoch, do you read 1 Enoch or other Enochian apocryphal works? - pretty cool stuff

 

[Zeke]

So where the Gnostic where right?

 

[freelight]

Nature, will and principle......

Nature, will and principle......

So where the Gnostic where right?

Marcionites and various gnostic groups did bring up interesting concepts and a draw towards personal enlightenment and individual liberation from false gods and systems of slavery. Paul carried this forward in his own way as his own gospel seeks to free souls from the law imposed by the 'god' or 'authority' of the levitical law, which is why many gnostic groups used aspects of Paul's teaching as their own. Off topic sort of, but may continue this subject on Marcionism with its own thread, as to revive research of gnostic worldviews and kindred schools.

Such will be a sequel to our no longer extant thread 'Gnostic Cosmology'.

The shocking equation of the video presentation as to the nature of the entity enforcing cruelty and death as a devilish being.... villifies the cruelty of ECT on principle alone, since it can be rejected solely on that, whether you are a theist or an atheist.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Stupid phone

 

[JudgeRightly]

...

 

[JudgeRightly]

Prove it.

lain:

There are three reasons why Hell is eternal.

Reason 1: There is no other way.

Jesus asked His Father, in the garden before he was taken to be executed, if there was any other way to bring salvation to mankind. Three times, He asked the Father if there was any other way:

Then Jesus came with them to a place called Gethsemane, and said to the disciples, “Sit here while I go and pray over there.”And He took with Him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and He began to be sorrowful and deeply distressed.Then He said to them, “My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death. Stay here and watch with Me.”He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.”Then He came to the disciples and found them sleeping, and said to Peter, “What! Could you not watch with Me one hour?Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”Again, a second time, He went away and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if this cup cannot pass away from Me unless I drink it, Your will be done.”And He came and found them asleep again, for their eyes were heavy.So He left them, went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words. - Matthew 26:36-44 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew26:36-44&version=NKJV

He asked that if there was any other way that the cup of responsibility be passed from Him, but since there was no other way, because the debt that sin generates against the demands of justice is infinite, and only someone with infinite worth could pay that debt.

Reason 2:

Love must be freely given.

If love can be compelled, if a woman just doesn't like a man, and he's been pursuing her and finds a way to give her a pill that now she likes him, if that were somehow ok, and not grotesque, well then maybe we could think that love could be compelled. But love cannot be compelled. Love must be freely given.

Reason 3:

The Bible emphatically tells us that those who reject God will live forever in separation from Him.

If the punishment for sin was finite, if it was not eternal separation from God, then surely God, in all His creativity, could come up with a payment for salvation, something other than the life of His only Son. For there is nothing in all of existence, more precious, more valuable, of greater worth, of limitless atonement, than the life of God the Son, yet God the Son became flesh, dwelt among us, then offered Himself on the cross, was separated from the Father (which is death), the Father poured out His wrath on the Son to pay for our sin.

 

[JudgeRightly]

“Hell from beneath is excited about you, To meet you at your coming; It stirs up the dead for you, All the chief ones of the earth; It has raised up from their thrones All the kings of the nations.They all shall speak and say to you: ‘Have you also become as weak as we? Have you become like us?Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, And the sound of your stringed instruments; The maggot is spread under you, And worms cover you.’ - Isaiah 14:9-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah14:9-11&version=NKJV

 

[freelight]

More to it than traditional beliefs about a place called 'hell'....much more!

More to it than traditional beliefs about a place called 'hell'....much more!

There are three reasons why Hell is eternal.

Reason 1: There is no other way.

Jesus asked His Father, in the garden before he was taken to be executed, if there was any other way to bring salvation to mankind. Three times, He asked the Father if there was any other way:

Then Jesus came with them to a place called Gethsemane, and said to the disciples, “Sit here while I go and pray over there.”And He took with Him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and He began to be sorrowful and deeply distressed.Then He said to them, “My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death. Stay here and watch with Me.”He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.”Then He came to the disciples and found them sleeping, and said to Peter, “What! Could you not watch with Me one hour?Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”Again, a second time, He went away and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if this cup cannot pass away from Me unless I drink it, Your will be done.”And He came and found them asleep again, for their eyes were heavy.So He left them, went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words. - Matthew 26:36-44 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew26:36-44&version=NKJV

He asked that if there was any other way that the cup of responsibility be passed from Him, but since there was no other way, because the debt that sin generates against the demands of justice is infinite, and only someone with infinite worth could pay that debt.

The whole 'infinite' equation to so called 'sin' and 'punishment' doesn't hold water, and only is 'assumed' by various intellectual gymnastics and presuppositions. The gospel narrative here concerns Jesus own personal path in his service to 'God', while varied opinions carry on about just what his 'dying' accomplished. - different 'atonement' models can be assumed.

Reason 2:

Love must be freely given.

If love can be compelled, if a woman just doesn't like a man, and he's been pursuing her and finds a way to give her a pill that now she likes him, if that were somehow ok, and not grotesque, well then maybe we could think that love could be compelled. But love cannot be compelled. Love must be freely given.

Dont forget that divine LOVE is INFINITE. Our human expression or experience of such is limited, circumscribed and relative. God's is not. When you consider the infinity of love itself, perhaps you wouldnt put restrictions on it, since such a love is unconditional and unqualified in its very essence.

As far as a 'relational exchange' between two personalities, yes....that love may be 'conditional' in some respects with 'response-ability' and how both 'relate' and enjoy each other's friendship.

Reason 3:

The Bible emphatically tells us that those who reject God will live forever in separation from Him.

If the punishment for sin was finite, if it was not eternal separation from God, then surely God, in all His creativity, could come up with a payment for salvation, something other than the life of His only Son. For there is nothing in all of existence, more precious, more valuable, of greater worth, of limitless atonement, than the life of God the Son, yet God the Son became flesh, dwelt among us, then offered Himself on the cross, was separated from the Father (which is death), the Father poured out His wrath on the Son to pay for our sin.

Again, the proposition above is all based on a premise of some 'sin' concept that must be 'atoned' for vicariously by Christ, which introduces other problems into the equation which would not exist if this 'model' were not imposed. I know this is a thread debating 'biblical' interpretations, but there are more than one, and since we are in open discussion, some that are problematic can be questioned.

Also, since 'God' is the one underlying fundamental reality that sustains all conscious existence, all that is.....and is OMNIPRESENT....one could not be anymore seperated from 'God' (Source-energy) than a drop of water could be seperate from the OCEAN it derives its existence from, being ONE with IT.

Just a few thoughts for now,...as I've covered this in its various aspects earlier in my ECT Blog-portal here

I will continue to reiterate, that infinite love must by nature continue on into infinity, and have within it infinite potential. This means that love will continue to be what it IS no matter what choices or effects an individual soul is bringing into its own experience that seems to obscure, quench or confuse this 'love', AND since Love's will is always unchanging, Love will continue to be....and ACT towards a soul, as long as any soul has the capacity, opportunity and ability to RESPOND to that love.

Hence God's love continues ON and ON into eternity, and fills completely and utterly the fullness of infinity. - any 'conditioning' on love or the experience of it, must be relative, limited, temporal, non-ultimate......UNLESS a soul COULD choose for itself a final and eternal death (disintegration/annihilation) of conscious existence as a 'person', by a complete rejection of life, and consummate embrace of iniquity, which naturally results in DEATH, in the ultimate sense for that individual life-stream. However, getting into the metaphysics of this is a complex matter, and certainly goes much DEEPER than any mere literal surface reading of certain verses in the Bible...which I go somewhat into in former commentary

 

[Arthur Brain]

There are three reasons why Hell is eternal.

Reason 1: There is no other way.

Jesus asked His Father, in the garden before he was taken to be executed, if there was any other way to bring salvation to mankind. Three times, He asked the Father if there was any other way:

Then Jesus came with them to a place called Gethsemane, and said to the disciples, “Sit here while I go and pray over there.”And He took with Him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and He began to be sorrowful and deeply distressed.Then He said to them, “My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death. Stay here and watch with Me.”He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.”Then He came to the disciples and found them sleeping, and said to Peter, “What! Could you not watch with Me one hour?Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”Again, a second time, He went away and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if this cup cannot pass away from Me unless I drink it, Your will be done.”And He came and found them asleep again, for their eyes were heavy.So He left them, went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words. - Matthew 26:36-44 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew26:36-44&version=NKJV

He asked that if there was any other way that the cup of responsibility be passed from Him, but since there was no other way, because the debt that sin generates against the demands of justice is infinite, and only someone with infinite worth could pay that debt.

Reason 2:

Love must be freely given.

If love can be compelled, if a woman just doesn't like a man, and he's been pursuing her and finds a way to give her a pill that now she likes him, if that were somehow ok, and not grotesque, well then maybe we could think that love could be compelled. But love cannot be compelled. Love must be freely given.

Reason 3:

The Bible emphatically tells us that those who reject God will live forever in separation from Him.

If the punishment for sin was finite, if it was not eternal separation from God, then surely God, in all His creativity, could come up with a payment for salvation, something other than the life of His only Son. For there is nothing in all of existence, more precious, more valuable, of greater worth, of limitless atonement, than the life of God the Son, yet God the Son became flesh, dwelt among us, then offered Himself on the cross, was separated from the Father (which is death), the Father poured out His wrath on the Son to pay for our sin.

This isn't "proof", this is just you trying to shoehorn verses into why in your opinion "hell" should be real along with subjective speculations. If love is freely given then it isn't coerced through threats such as the grotesque doctrine that you try and defend. If you think your doctrine is so "clear" then think again also, either that or keep with the "chick tract" brand of "Christianity".

 

[freelight]

~*~*~

As we contemplate the reality of infinite love, there can be no room for ECT...when love is the all-pervading and omnipresent reality upholding & sustaining all that is.

~*~*~​