Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Well, if the teachings are love then a doctrine that teaches people are killed simply for not believing, having doubts and pretty much being frail flesh and blood then there's a disconnect going on there.
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
Well, if the teachings are love then a doctrine that teaches people are killed simply for not believing, having doubts and pretty much being frail flesh and blood then there's a disconnect going on there.
I have been reading His word and I know His teachings are perfect. That's why I am His follower.
If I doubt His word, I am no longer His follower. I quite calling myself a Christian if I cannot trust His word.
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Then why have a problem if God extends love to people who aren't believers in this life? You don't believe in eternal torment and other Christians do.
We will be judged according to what we pursue. Jesus' whole purpose is to bring love to the whole world. I believe His way is it. I don't think anyone better than Him, teaching love.
I am Jesus follow and He says He is the way. His whole purpose is to bring love and peace to the world.
No one can teach it the way He does. He is the perfect teacher of love. who are we to argue what He teaches. If we are better than Him, we will be having love and peace.
Do you think the world is full of love and peace? Not.
No one can teach it the way He does. He is the perfect teacher of love. who are we to argue what He teaches. If we are better than Him, we will be having love and peace.
Do you think the world is full of love and peace? Not.
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Ok.
There is zero disconnect in the Catholic expression of the Christian faith, which is found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm
(There's an alphabetical index at the bottom of that page, if ever curious about what the Church teaches on a particular topic.)
Meshak, are you being evasive again? Please give me the name of someone in the news recently. I will then tell you why there is a hell.
Tortured is the wrong word. Tormented is a better word. Tormented by their own shame, by their hatred of God, by the fact that they will never see their Creator again. Ideas have consequences.
You may be interested in these two shows. They explain why there is an eternal hell.
And if you're not interested in listening to something, I await your response to my above request for someone who was in the news recently, and I will answer you then in full why there is a hell, using the example you provided.
Correct.
So you're a nihilist?
I read that as, "Thanks AMR, but I refuse to try to understand anyone else's position other than my own."
Pedophiles are "ok" with being pedophiles, but that doesn't make them right...
Unfortunately Ktoyou is wrong in stating that it's alright to remain in the milk. Yes, Paul taught about milk and meat, but remaining in the milk means your relationship with God is stagnant. And by remaining stagnant, your relationship with God becomes lukewarm, and we know what God thinks about being lukewarm.
Jesus said, in His ministry to Israel:
"2 Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, 3 and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 18:2-4 NKJV
Tell me Meshak, should children only drink their mother's milk for the rest of their lives? or should they learn to eat meat? Which is healthier?
Of course Paul was like a child at some point. But he grew out of his "childhood" to be one of the most proficient teachers of the meat of the gospel.
Agreed.
The point of a deterrent is to instill fear. Eternal torment is supposed to be the ultimate deterrent, because it's a punishment that is inescapable and unending.
Exactly.
Well, for a creature to be able to love, it must be able to hate. Being able to love is only made possible by having the ability to hate. Loving God or hating God, those are the only two options. God says that one is either for Him or against Him.
Is God the kind of Person who wants to or needs to actively torment people for all eternity, or is He the kind of Person who says, "If you rebel against Me and refuse to humble yourself, then I cannot help you. Therefore you have to live alone apart from Me forever."?
Physical things. There is nothing physical in Hell. Hell is a real place, but it isn't a physical place.
These things are not physical. Tell me, Arthur, do you know what the Bible says man is made of? How many parts and what are they?
Let's learn to walk before we learn to run. I'll answer this, if I haven't already in this post, once you answer my question in the segment above this one.
Correct.
Man is given the time he has on this earth to choose where he wants to spend the rest of eternity. How many opportunities do you think one person has before that point?
Death is separation. Physical death is separation of the body and spirit. Spiritual death is separation of God and an individual's spirit. All (except for those who are caught up in the rapture) experience physical death.
However, not all will experience spiritual death, separation from God, because those who are written in the Book of Life have Christ standing in for them as their righteousness, so when God looks at them, He sees Christ's righteousness instead of the sin of the individual.
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Then love has no part in such a despicable doctrine. You yourself have gone on about how love doesn't coerce and there's nothing more manipulative or coercive than fear.
Wrong, You don't need to be able to hate in order to be able to love, that's just your own disconnect in order to try and shoehorn your own unsubstantiated opinion. Atheists do not 'hate God', not by any verifiable definition of the term.
I don't think a loving God fits into either example.
You might find that it's simply the grave.
You tell me.
How about you just learn some empathy instead. You clearly know nothing about love if you think you have to be able to hate in order to know what love is.
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
lain:
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Truth be told................
Truth be told................
Yes, the law of action and consequence is a universal one, such is the principle of karma. An understanding of such universal law and its effects in space and time, would be more rational and logical to assume, than a concept of ECT, which is just insane. Ideas, choice and action have their effects.
I dont know how it can be assumed that a conscious entity will NEVER see their Creator again, when 'God' is omnipresent, and his LOVE is eternal. It would be more rational to assume that LOVE's will is eternal, its fullness immeasurable, so that all long as a soul has the opportunity, capacity, possibility of returning to 'God', love would joyfully receive such repentance. If 'God' is love, then that love is both eternal and INFINITE.
ECT can be rejected on the premise of principle alone, besides all the different beliefs and interpretations of what 'hell' actually is, further complicated thru language translation.
That which is living and imbued with life (or the life principle) is sustained by 'God', and as long as any soul chooses to live in accord with the divine will(love), it shall live and avail itself immortality, if it qualifies to receive that as God's gift (the sharing of his own incorruptible nature).
I find the obsession with ECT a peculiar pastime for some, when the LOVE of 'God' is a much more wonderful and interesting reality to engage. Otherwise,...the law of karma ever holds, as long as there are thoughts and actions, there are effects of those movements, as every seed produces after its own,....so goes the law of seed-time and harvest. "as a man sows, that also shall he reap".
But ultimately the final end or eschatology of all things and beings must be mediated thru divine love and wisdom, so that justice and mercy are fairly dispensed and all things perfectly resolved in their compensations by divine providence. It must be that mercy triumphs over justice in the larger scheme of things, and that even with the judgment of the wicked or those who have chosen iniquity to a point of no return (soul death/destruction/disintegration), the divine love and wisdom ultimately triumphs still, except for those who have chosen a death from which there is no resurrection. (if that is possible).
Concerning 'hell'....
I suspect that some verses in the gospels were put into Jesus mouth by scribes, and are not necessarily the actual words of the Master. - to me no matter,....since every word by any prophet must still pass the test of truth, upon principle, and then by the meaning and value of what is TAUGHT. - this also goes if the gospel stories are mythology with some historical facts thrown in for good measure,....again...no matter.
Truth be told................
Yes, the law of action and consequence is a universal one, such is the principle of karma. An understanding of such universal law and its effects in space and time, would be more rational and logical to assume, than a concept of ECT, which is just insane. Ideas, choice and action have their effects.
I dont know how it can be assumed that a conscious entity will NEVER see their Creator again, when 'God' is omnipresent, and his LOVE is eternal. It would be more rational to assume that LOVE's will is eternal, its fullness immeasurable, so that all long as a soul has the opportunity, capacity, possibility of returning to 'God', love would joyfully receive such repentance. If 'God' is love, then that love is both eternal and INFINITE.
ECT can be rejected on the premise of principle alone, besides all the different beliefs and interpretations of what 'hell' actually is, further complicated thru language translation.
That which is living and imbued with life (or the life principle) is sustained by 'God', and as long as any soul chooses to live in accord with the divine will(love), it shall live and avail itself immortality, if it qualifies to receive that as God's gift (the sharing of his own incorruptible nature).
I find the obsession with ECT a peculiar pastime for some, when the LOVE of 'God' is a much more wonderful and interesting reality to engage. Otherwise,...the law of karma ever holds, as long as there are thoughts and actions, there are effects of those movements, as every seed produces after its own,....so goes the law of seed-time and harvest. "as a man sows, that also shall he reap".
But ultimately the final end or eschatology of all things and beings must be mediated thru divine love and wisdom, so that justice and mercy are fairly dispensed and all things perfectly resolved in their compensations by divine providence. It must be that mercy triumphs over justice in the larger scheme of things, and that even with the judgment of the wicked or those who have chosen iniquity to a point of no return (soul death/destruction/disintegration), the divine love and wisdom ultimately triumphs still, except for those who have chosen a death from which there is no resurrection. (if that is possible).
Concerning 'hell'....
I suspect that some verses in the gospels were put into Jesus mouth by scribes, and are not necessarily the actual words of the Master. - to me no matter,....since every word by any prophet must still pass the test of truth, upon principle, and then by the meaning and value of what is TAUGHT. - this also goes if the gospel stories are mythology with some historical facts thrown in for good measure,....again...no matter.
Last edited:
way 2 go
Well-known member
its about guilt or innocence
you are guilty of the sins you have committed .
there is nothing YOU can do to undo the sins you have committed.
all your good "karma" will not make you any less guilty of your sins.
without Jesus you remain guilty
everready
New member
Examine this document then decide..
http://www.theinvisiblechurch.ca/testimony/testimony.html
everready
http://www.theinvisiblechurch.ca/testimony/testimony.html
everready
everready
New member
ECT can be rejected on the premise of principle alone, besides all the different beliefs and interpretations of what 'hell' actually is, further complicated thru language translation.
That which is living and imbued with life (or the life principle) is sustained by 'God', and as long as any soul chooses to live in accord with the divine will(love), it shall live and avail itself immortality, if it qualifies to receive that as God's gift (the sharing of his own incorruptible nature).
I find the obsession with ECT a peculiar pastime for some, when the LOVE of 'God' is a much more wonderful and interesting reality to engage. Otherwise,...the law of karma ever holds, as long as there are thoughts and actions, there are effects of those movements, as every seed produces after its own,....so goes the law of seed-time and harvest. "as a man sows, that also shall he reap".
But ultimately the final end or eschatology of all things and beings must be mediated thru divine love and wisdom, so that justice and mercy are fairly dispensed and all things perfectly resolved in their compensations by divine providence. It must be that mercy triumphs over justice in the larger scheme of things, and that even with the judgment of the wicked or those who have chosen iniquity to a point of no return (soul death/destruction/disintegration), the divine love and wisdom ultimately triumphs still, except for those who have chosen a death from which there is no resurrection. (if that is possible).
Concerning 'hell'....
I suspect that some verses in the gospels were put into Jesus mouth by scribes, and are not necessarily the actual words of the Master. - to me no matter,....since every word by any prophet must still pass the test of truth, upon principle, and then by the meaning and value of what is TAUGHT. - this also goes if the gospel stories are mythology with some historical facts thrown in for good measure,....again...no matter.
When's the last time you read Jude?
everready
New member
This was my post..
Are you saying that this place called hell doesn't exist a place that was prepared for the devil and his angels?
Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
everready
Don't know how that happened.
My question remains.