Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[glorydaz]

Just one simple quote from that entire sprawling nonsense that leaped out:

"We find it easy to tread on and crush a worm that we see crawling on the earth"

I find it easy to avoid crushing worms and have picked drying ones up and put them back in some grass on occasion. Go figure. One of the nastiest sermons I've ever read.

Of course that couldn't just be a figure of speech....an exaggeration to make a point?

I guess I'll have to check it out for myself.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Of course that couldn't just be a figure of speech....an exaggeration to make a point?

I guess I'll have to check it out for myself.

Go read it, it's practically a Calvinist 'anthem'...

lain:

Though in some respects it reflects the callousness of any sort of belief in eternal torment.

 

[Arthur Brain]

:chuckle: Me too Arthur, I save flooded worms when possible too. I had a job in construction and I also scanned the workplace parking lot for nails and screws because we all kept getting flat tires so much. When it rained I would go out and take the washed out worms off the asphalt where they couldn't get back to land. Many were drowning but still alive so I carried them to some good pieces of land. Back breaking work.

 

[glorydaz]

Of course that couldn't just be a figure of speech....an exaggeration to make a point?

I guess I'll have to check it out for myself.

LOL Just as I expected. A fire and brimstone speech if there ever was on. The entire subject is speaking of the evil in man, and his need for God's GRACE.

Maybe if he had talked about crushing the heads of unborn babies instead of worms,
Artie wouldn't have gotten so upset. :think:

 

[rstrats]

JudgeRightly,
re: "You describe a being that is not in the Bible."


Revelation 20:15 - "And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

 

[rstrats]

JudgeRightly,
re: "A loving God created an entire universe, and populated it with beings whom He gave the ability to choose between being with Him and being without Him for all of eternity."


Wouldn't a person first have to believe that a supreme being existed before they could make this choice? And since beliefs cannot be consciously chosen, what is the person suppose to do?

 

[Arthur Brain]

To those with the compassion and empathy of a paving slab maybe...

LOL Just as I expected. A fire and brimstone speech if there ever was on. The entire subject is speaking of the evil in man, and his need for God's GRACE.

Maybe if he had talked about crushing the heads of unborn babies instead of worms,
Artie wouldn't have gotten so upset. :think:

Ah, speaking of someone with all the attributes of the above - right on cue...

First off, you do realize the guy was a staunch Calvinist right?

Secondly, if you think I agree with abortion laws as they are then think again you presumptive crank. It doesn't surprise me in the slightest that you're all okay with that rancid excuse of a sermon.

 

[everready]

Ah, speaking of someone with all the attributes of the above - right on cue...

First off, you do realize the guy was a staunch Calvinist right?

Secondly, if you think I agree with abortion laws as they are then think again you presumptive crank. It doesn't surprise me in the slightest that you're all okay with that rancid excuse of a sermon.

Maybe this would be more to your liking..

Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

everready

 

[Arthur Brain]

Maybe this would be more to your liking..

Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

everready

Oh good grief, you think that's literal? Hint: People tormented by flame would not ask for a drop of water...

:doh:

I would suggest you do some research on the symbolism of this passage but I suspect it would be a waste of time...

 

[glorydaz]

Ah, speaking of someone with all the attributes of the above - right on cue...

First off, you do realize the guy was a staunch Calvinist right?

Secondly, if you think I agree with abortion laws as they are then think again you presumptive crank. It doesn't surprise me in the slightest that you're all okay with that rancid excuse of a sermon.

First off, Edwards was not a staunch anything....he was one of a kind. He had some Calvanist leanings if you chose to read that into what he said.

Secondly, I was making a point that went over you head, apparently. You missed my point, just as you missed Edwards point, because you are so darn sensitive and liberal you can't get past being easily offended.

 

[Arthur Brain]

First off, Edwards was not a staunch anything....he was one of a kind. He had some Calvanist leanings if you chose to read that into what he said.

Secondly, I was making a point that went over you head, apparently. You missed my point, just as you missed Edwards point, because you are so darn sensitive and liberal you can't get past being easily offended.

Edwards was rooted in reformed theology and theological determinism, he wasn't an 'open theist' by any stretch. Your "point" was nothing of the kind and was simply a rancid little presumption that was way off the mark, as per usual for you. Go compare your 'plight' as a Christian with the Holocaust some more you pompous little snowflake.

 

[freelight]

Love Everlasting......

Love Everlasting......

Oh good grief, you think that's literal? Hint: People tormented by flame would not ask for a drop of water...

:doh:

I would suggest you do some research on the symbolism of this passage but I suspect it would be a waste of time...

:crackup:

Allegory, types, shadows, symbology,....gotta love it

A God of love and wisdom rules and judges with total fairness, equity, upholding justice and mercy to their full, and only 'God' himself and the heavenly tribunals can render those decisions with the free will choices of each individual as to their conditions and eternal destiny. Yet love and wisdom are the directing guides while mercy is ever triumphing over justice. This is natural to a 'God' that is LOVE itself.

So many seem to allow a 'theology' of cruelty and insanity to tarnish their vision of divine love.

Challenging ECT here (and elsewhere)

 

[glorydaz]

Edwards was rooted in reformed theology and theological determinism, he wasn't an 'open theist' by any stretch. Your "point" was nothing of the kind and was simply a rancid little presumption that was way off the mark, as per usual for you. Go compare your 'plight' as a Christian with the Holocaust some more you pompous little snowflake.

You have such an angry spirit about you, Smartie. It's quite interesting how you act like you know what being a believer is all about. :think:

 

[Arthur Brain]

You have such an angry spirit about you, Smartie. It's quite interesting how you act like you know what being a believer is all about. :think:

Not especially but when people make up silly little 'barbed comments that backfire and then dishonestly pretend as though they've made some profound observation it's not exactly impressive. Your remark about abortion did not 'sail over my head', it was just a dumb thing to say else you explain what your "point" was exactly. Seeing as how you like to think you're an authority on lecturing other Christians on here as to how they should believe you can crack on with it GD.

 

[everready]

Oh good grief, you think that's literal? Hint: People tormented by flame would not ask for a drop of water...

:doh:

I would suggest you do some research on the symbolism of this passage but I suspect it would be a waste of time...

And just how would you know this? "People tormented by flame would not ask for a drop of water..."

everready

 

[Arthur Brain]

And just how would you know this? "People tormented by flame would not ask for a drop of water..."

everready

Oh do the math. You'd be screaming for the fire to be put out if you were even capable of any coherent words...

:doh:

 

[everready]

Oh do the math. You'd be screaming for the fire to be put out if you were even capable of any coherent words...

:doh:

Jesus makes it abundantly clear this man was perfectly coherent..

Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

everready

 

[Arthur Brain]

Jesus makes it abundantly clear this man was perfectly coherent..

Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

everready

Which is why it should occur to you that the passage is symbolic and not literal.

 

[clefty]

Jesus makes it abundantly clear this man was perfectly coherent..

Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

everready

You seriously think heaven and hell are merely separated by a ditch?

You seriously think the distance is near enough to recognize someone?...that is what 100 yards? I mean how did the rich man know it was Abraham? Name tag? Portrait ID?

The Lazarus raised was dead for four days...FOUR...think about that...either in heaven and having to return or burning in hell and haveing His friend purposely delay His healing?

Think of the gospel of Lazarus and what a witness and testimony it would be full of stories either of four days of heaven or four days of hell...alas NOTHING

Because that is exactly what the dead know...

 

[freelight]

Jesus makes it abundantly clear this man was perfectly coherent..

Ever hear of a 'parable'? - we've already been over this. - the are teaching tools, allegorical stories to communicate certain themes, ideas, principles, etc. I recommend an 'upgrade' in your 'program' module