Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

way 2 go

Well-known member
Biblical;

Revelation 20:10 New Living Translation (NLT)

10 Then the devil, who had deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT) biblical or not?

Biblical

Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Exploring New Dimensions......

Exploring New Dimensions......

I am quite honored that you have bestowed on me one of your shortest posts ever (at least in my own knowledge of your posts).

Thank you Derf,....I can be succinct when I choose to :) - otherwise I can expand a bit more as the expositer in me enjoys extending commentary to make sure all points, angles and dimensions are covered. I have worked on editing down a bit over the years, although perhaps recent research and discoveries along with my proclivity for creative writing has been cresting.

Certainly, if God is the source of everything, then He is responsible for all we see--without Him it would not have begun to exist.

But the creation of independently-minded beings--for whatever purpose He might have had in mind--must allow for all sorts of evil intention, if not evil made manifest. The latter, of course, depends on how long God puts up with the evil intentions and the resultant manifestations. So far, He seems to have put up with quite a lot, though He once had had enough (and sent a flood), and once more will have had enough (and send fire).

I don't deny your assertion, then, that God's creation of independently-minded beings results in many potentials and possibilities, but not all. God has shown He has limits to His patience.

Thus, we can say that God has allowed evil (the kind I would semantically say God is NOT the author of), based on the outworkings of independently-minded beings' independence of mind.

The biblical context is important, not just because it is in the title of the thread, but also because of the dearth of trustworthy sources. The bible, as pointed out by [MENTION=16942]JudgeRightly[/MENTION], has proven itself repeatedly on other topics, despite severe pressures from those that don't agree with it.

Noted :cool:

My former blog portal on ECT here.


And if the bible is trustworthy on this subject, we ought to attempt to extract all of the information from it that we possibly can, since the subject has such immense importance for everyone who has ever lived or will live, including you and me. And I don't trust my own opinion any further than I can throw it. Neither should you.

I've never doubted any inspiration or wisdom in the Bible, but note its limited dispensation and variables within the books therein. Its importance is therefore limited to whatever context or qualifications are applied.

As far as opinions go, I trust 'God' to give enough reason, logic, intelligence and investigative powers to the soul, in its search for truth. (not to mention there is a 'God-spark' within every living soul upon which to draw). Hence as a 'soulpioneer' I go forward. This reflects in my latest commentary here, and a current dive into the claims of a 'historical' Jesus and a 'mythicist' view of Jesus, which is quite fascinating. I have no fear in what I discover, since Love would grant all within its providence. Jesus is not limited to either strict end of the spectrum, neither any one concept-frame or Christological motif ;)
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Wut...? I think I actually lost a brain cell or two reading that...

Thank 'God' a little more study in the allegorical teaching of 'scripture' and a familiarity with the greater venue of esoteric, metaphysical and universal principles found within all religious traditions, might help you recover those 'cells' and perhaps add a good many more ;)
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Hell no..................

Hell no..................

Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT) biblical or not?

Biblical

Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Sorry, the only passage that has the english words 'eternal' and 'punishment' together, doesn't float.

For starters:

"Eternal" Punishment (Matthew 25:46) Is NOT Found In The Greek New Testament

If Everlasting Punishment is not Eternal then how can Life be Eternal? (Matthew 25:46)


IMO, a 'god' who tortures souls for all eternity is not a 'god' but a heinous monster.

Now whether ECT is 'biblical' is besides the point, and pretty 'arbritary' since people translate/interpret words and passages in ways biased towards their own philosophical leanings. However when religious beliefs and concepts violate universal and fundamental propositions, principles and values, thats where we draw the line.
 

Derf

Well-known member
I've never doubted any inspiration or wisdom in the Bible, but note its limited dispensation and variables within the books therein. Its importance is therefore limited to whatever context or qualifications are applied.
Well, not since yesterday at 11:42 pm, anyway. Can you really not doubt the inspiration and wisdom of anything when you doubt its truth? And I'm sure you are more than happy to supply those qualifications from your own opinions. It always goes back to: "Did God really say <insert appropriate lie here>?"

As far as opinions go, I trust 'God' to give enough reason, logic, intelligence and investigative powers to the soul, in its search for truth. (not to mention there is a 'God-spark' within every living soul upon which to draw). Hence as a 'soulpioneer' I go forward.
Blah, blah, blah.... Seems to me that you have embarked on a journey to convince yourself that you are the final arbiter of any truth, thus putting yourself in the place of God. No wonder you use the quote marks when you write it.

This reflects in my latest commentary here, and a current dive into the claims of a 'historical' Jesus and a 'mythicist' view of Jesus, which is quite fascinating. I have no fear in what I discover, since Love would grant all within its providence. Jesus is not limited to either strict end of the spectrum, neither any one concept-frame or Christological motif ;)
You have no fear of what you discover, as long as it doesn't include ECT, eh?

While you say, "Love would grant all within its providence", the bible (Lev 20:23) says God kicked the Canaanites out of Canaan (His "providence"), the Jews out of Jerusalem (His city), and the Devil out of heaven (His throne). Jesus said He would judge "in that day", saying "Depart from me, you who practice lawlessness." How can Love "grant all within its providence" while sending people away from it?
 

Rosenritter

New member
Biblical;

Revelation 20:10 New Living Translation (NLT)

10 Then the devil, who had deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

You must have skipped over read the previous prophecies God already gave us that told us that the judgment at the end of the world destroys the devil to ashes, that he be no more... even specifically with fire. Revelation is written in the context of the rest of inspired scripture. So unless you want to take the stand that not all scripture is given by inspiration of God... your assumption that the devil is immortal is NOT Biblical.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
You must have skipped over read the previous prophecies God already gave us that told us that the judgment at the end of the world destroys the devil to ashes, that he be no more... even specifically with fire. Revelation is written in the context of the rest of inspired scripture. So unless you want to take the stand that not all scripture is given by inspiration of God... your assumption that the devil is immortal is NOT Biblical.

Rather, you're standing on one text which some assume is speaking of satan.
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Cosmic insights transcending traditional theology........

Cosmic insights transcending traditional theology........

Well, not since yesterday at 11:42 pm, anyway. Can you really not doubt the inspiration and wisdom of anything when you doubt its truth? And I'm sure you are more than happy to supply those qualifications from your own opinions. It always goes back to: "Did God really say <insert appropriate lie here>?"

Hi Derf,

I refer you back to the paragraph you're responding to, which is quite sufficient in its explanation :) - your link to my former post to JR also still holds, upon which he is apparently musing over an appropriate response. Again, the Bible is a composite writing of many different authors, all having various and different reasons and agendas for their compositions, - hence any 'inspiraiton' or 'value' of those writings will be 'conditioned' by the scribes themselves, among many other variables.

A redirecting to the Garden of Eden 'story' (mythology) is really unnecessary in this equation ;) - as I shared, I'm seriously doing deeper research into religious philosophy and mythology, and have always been more of a mystic, gnostic spiritualist anyways, seeing the hidden meanings, allegory and symbolism in religious writings. The Garden of Eden story would be considered by many as having 'mythological' and 'allegorical' components.

Blah, blah, blah.... Seems to me that you have embarked on a journey to convince yourself that you are the final arbiter of any truth, thus putting yourself in the place of God. No wonder you use the quote marks when you write it.

The statement you are 'blahing' still holds, being both logical and reasonable. In any field of 'knowledge' we ought to be 'scientists', that includes rational thinking, logic, ...even in the field of religious studies or spiritual experience, each thing must be evaluated within its own context, then its value or meaning can be assessed therefrom.

Yes,...there is a subtle reason I sometimes write 'God' with quote marks, since it is just a 'word' describing 'Deity' or some 'divinity' (personal or non-personal, etc.). It is merely a nuance of punctuation showing that any value, meaning or description can be included or identified with the word 'God'. I've found this to be universally consistent, since your 'concept' of 'God' may be different than mine. Such a 'nauance' is merely cosmetic ;) - I also make up my own words sometimes,....its one of those fun side perks that come with 'creative writing'. - as I've said elsewhere, these are just 'words' anyways,.....its all 'alphabet soup'. Language is a universal medium like music, - differences only exist in our terms, notes, symbols, and the meanings, values we ascribe to those terms.

You have no fear of what you discover, as long as it doesn't include ECT, eh?

No fear in love. If your 'God' is love, or if in reality, true Deity is LOVE itself,...then there is absolutely nothing to fear, and even moreso since 'God' is the omnipresent REALITY always BEING. After all, if you hold to the traditional classical definition of God from a theist perspective,...LOVE is omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent. This is why a Universalist view TRUMPS a traditional concept of the hellfire of ECT, while a 'conditional immortality' view at least provides certain rules or laws concerning the grant of 'immortality' via free will choice, while not maligning the character of God as some kind of sadistic Punisher.

My former commentary and critique of ECT, shared here and elsewhere stands, until more insight or modifications ensue. All points of view, opinions are assumptions are subject to change with additional light. This is the attitude of any true student, in any given field.

While you say, "Love would grant all within its providence", the bible (Lev 20:23) says God kicked the Canaanites out of Canaan (His "providence"), the Jews out of Jerusalem (His city), and the Devil out of heaven (His throne). Jesus said He would judge "in that day", saying "Depart from me, you who practice lawlessness." How can Love "grant all within its providence" while sending people away from it?

Is Love love, or not? What is love's nature, constitution, desire, will? I'd stick with considering that fundamental inquiry, before qualifying or assuming some presumed or pre-scribed image or concept of love. I would also suggest considering the essence and nature of Deity itself, illuminated or intuited in your own being, and let that light guide and enlighten your intellect and conscience, since that 'presence of God' is innate within every sentient being, or else you would not have any life or consciousness, 'God' being the very source and sustainer of life. Since consciousness is at the heart of life itself, and life's very essence upholds and contains awareness,...I recognize that 'God' is at the heart of life, as the First Source and Center of All that IS. So perhaps our understanding of 'God' differs in some ways, but the fundamentals of 'God' being love, light, truth, spirit....ever holds, unless you would define, de-scribe or qualify 'God' as something else.
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
So, to cut to the chase, a supposedly loving deity creates life and if it doesn't pass muster it effectively gets lobbed into eternal suffering. Yep, that adds up...

:plain:

It bemuses me how people can glibly swallow doctrines without any question, no matter how callous and illogical they happen to be. The most sadistic entity unimaginable couldn't compare with that.
 

JudgeRightly

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So, to cut to the chase, a supposedly loving deity creates life and if it doesn't pass muster it effectively gets lobbed into eternal suffering. Yep, that adds up...

Incorrect.

A loving God created an entire universe, and populated it with beings whom He gave the ability to choose between being with Him and being without Him for all of eternity. This loving God knows that it would be sick to force those who choose not to live with Him to live with Him for all eternity against their will.

The being you described is simply not the God presented in the Bible

:plain:

It bemuses me how people can glibly swallow doctrines without any question, no matter how callous and illogical they happen to be.

You seem to have swallowed the one you just provided without too much issue, probably easier than most others because you would rather have that false representation be the reality, inasmuch you know in your heart of hearts that that being would be a wicked and perverse thing that is easily shown to be so, which allows you to claim the moral high ground, than to humble yourself before the One who loves you, and admit your guilt.

If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say that the reason for that is that it would mean that if the God of the Bible I presented above is the one true God, then it would force you to admit there is an authority higher than yourself, meaning you aren't the ultimate authority on what is right and wrong, good or evil, moral or immoral.

If He is your Creator, and you shun Him until you die, then He will grant you your lifelong desire to be separated from Him. He will not force you to spend eternity with Him. Hell is simply the place where God is not, and will never be.

The most sadistic entity unimaginable couldn't compare with that.

You describe a being that is not in the Bible. That is why you are so easily able to discredit that being.

It is literally the ultimate form of a straw man argument, misrepresenting God, and then easily knocking down that misrepresentation.
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
Incorrect.

A loving God created an entire universe, and populated it with beings whom He gave the ability to choose between being with Him and being without Him for all of eternity. This loving God knows that it would be sick to force those who choose not to live with Him to live with Him for all eternity against their will.

Do you think everyone who doesn't believe as you do is doing so consciously and with full awareness of the alternative? That's just dogmatic rhetoric. Do you think you'd be one of the few bright enough to recognize your house is on fire while everyone else admires the smoke? This thread is about eternal, conscious torment so please tell me how it's somehow not sick for people to be in such a state and yet it's not sick for a loving God to be able to prevent His creations from suffering it, otherwise you're shifting the goalposts.

The being you described is simply not the God presented in the Bible

You're the one seemingly applauding the concept of eternal torment here. I'm not saying that those who believe in a god who would have people interminably suffer are representing God either just to clarify.

You seem to have swallowed the one you just provided without too much issue, probably easier than most others because you would rather have that false representation be the reality, inasmuch you know in your heart of hearts that that being would be a wicked and perverse thing that is easily shown to be so, which allows you to claim the moral high ground, than to humble yourself before the One who loves you, and admit your guilt.

Dude, I used to be in a church that proclaimed the doctrine of eternal hell and if you're handing around thanks to people who believe in eternal suffering then just what is your stance on the matter?

If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say that the reason for that is that it would mean that if the God of the Bible I presented above is the one true God, then it would force you to admit there is an authority higher than yourself, meaning you aren't the ultimate authority on what is right and wrong, good or evil, moral or immoral.

Then you really should quit with the guesswork. I'm not averse to there being a creator and I'm not an atheist. I am, however, opposed to doctrines based on absolute fear and suffering that depict such a deity as a monster. I've heard enough excuses from people that their god can inflict what he wants and it would be 'good' as long as it ties in with their own belief system, which coincidentally enough they're not going to suffer themselves...

If He is your Creator, and you shun Him until you die, then He will grant you your lifelong desire to be separated from Him. He will not force you to spend eternity with Him. Hell is simply the place where God is not, and will never be.

Because it's just so simple as that for you isn't it? Do you honestly think that every atheist, agnostic or people from other faiths are consciously choosing that? Do you think the parents of a stillborn baby or one born and who dies with cancer are non believers because they hate God or something? Do you ever step outside of the confines of your own black and white little world?

You describe a being that is not in the Bible. That is why you are so easily able to discredit that being.

It is literally the ultimate form of a straw man argument, misrepresenting God, and then easily knocking down that misrepresentation.

Hey, I don't acknowledge doctrines that portray God as being such so take that up with those that do instead of thanking them for posts that 'defend' it.
 
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Arthur Brain

Well-known member
One of the greatest sermons ever preached..

Sinners in the Hands of An Angry God

(Deuteronomy 32:35)

Jonathan Edwards

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/history/spurgeon/web/edwards.sinners.html

everready

Just one simple quote from that entire sprawling nonsense that leaped out:

"We find it easy to tread on and crush a worm that we see crawling on the earth"

I find it easy to avoid crushing worms and have picked drying ones up and put them back in some grass on occasion. Go figure. One of the nastiest sermons I've ever read.
 

patrick jane

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Just one simple quote from that entire sprawling nonsense that leaped out:

"We find it easy to tread on and crush a worm that we see crawling on the earth"

I find it easy to avoid crushing worms and have picked drying ones up and put them back in some grass on occasion. Go figure. One of the nastiest sermons I've ever read.
:chuckle: Me too Arthur, I save flooded worms when possible too. I had a job in construction and I also scanned the workplace parking lot for nails and screws because we all kept getting flat tires so much. When it rained I would go out and take the washed out worms off the asphalt where they couldn't get back to land. Many were drowning but still alive so I carried them to some good pieces of land. Back breaking work.
 
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