Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
way 2 go
Well-known member
craziest part of that argument is by their logic no everlasting life either .
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
G165 aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age;
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
G166 aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual
Ben Masada
New member
1 - Nothing eternal about man could be Biblical as man is concerned. Man is born, lives his span of life and dies.
2 - Genesis 3:22
God's Truth
New member
Jesus is going to weed out those who love him and obey, from those who reject him and live a life pleasing the flesh and going against what is good.
The person that made this post is a sad case, for it is good to fear the Lord. How does one fear the Lord if they believe the torment in their mind, while on earth, will be silenced one day, and not by obeying God's Truth?
The person that made this post is a sad case, for it is good to fear the Lord. How does one fear the Lord if they believe the torment in their mind, while on earth, will be silenced one day, and not by obeying God's Truth?
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Matt. 25:46 under the microscope......
Matt. 25:46 under the microscope......
First off its a misnomer and unnecessary to 'assume' or 'conclude' that 'aionios' here means anything but a certain period of time, an 'age', an 'epoch', something that is 'age-lasting'. Note that an 'age' or a 'duration of time' has a beginning and an end. There is also no reason to assume that 'aionios punishment' has to be of the same duration or quality of 'aionios life', since the 'age' of each dispensation may vary,....all its saying is that rewards and suffering of both the righteous and the wicked will extend for extend for an age. There is no reason to infer or read into the text anything else, but those who push ECT, love to use this passage in the literal sense of English, but neglect the original Greek. Its of no consequence really, beyond meaning that justice and mercy will extend their hands in divine providence,...and all sins have their effects which will bring suffering for some period of time, as well as the rewards of 'aionios' life, (life that is age-lasting).
For a detailed article and many other Bible translations that translate this more correctly, see here.
God is lawful, and is law itself if you want to strip things down to their bare essential or principle.....whether we consider Deity being 'personal' or 'impersonal',.....the law of compensation still prevails, and it is wholly fair and just, since one only reaps what he sows (measure for measure) and according to his own deeds and mental condition does he enjoy or suffer from the results or his actions. - Now how far this can extend on or be "effected" depends on the sin being committed as far as quality, degree, duration goes, etc. Therefore, as long as one can 'sow' anything (make any motive of thought, speak any word, or act in any way)...something is 'reaped' in return. Anything subject to conditioning, is under karmic law (whether you claim to a Christian, Buddhist, hindu, jew or pagan...it matters not....the law remains).
Again, there is no reason to assume an age-lasting correction or punishment has to last as long as 'age-lasting life', since the duration of suffering and enjoyment can vary among the wicked and the just. And don't forget, even with your black n white duality-comparison assumption here, the wicked and righteousness are still reaping what they sow, as long as they continue to sow anything. So their 'reaping' will be compensatory to their sowing, to whatever degree, quality or duration. Its all 'relative' and 'conditional'.
Matt. 25:46 under the microscope......
First off its a misnomer and unnecessary to 'assume' or 'conclude' that 'aionios' here means anything but a certain period of time, an 'age', an 'epoch', something that is 'age-lasting'. Note that an 'age' or a 'duration of time' has a beginning and an end. There is also no reason to assume that 'aionios punishment' has to be of the same duration or quality of 'aionios life', since the 'age' of each dispensation may vary,....all its saying is that rewards and suffering of both the righteous and the wicked will extend for extend for an age. There is no reason to infer or read into the text anything else, but those who push ECT, love to use this passage in the literal sense of English, but neglect the original Greek. Its of no consequence really, beyond meaning that justice and mercy will extend their hands in divine providence,...and all sins have their effects which will bring suffering for some period of time, as well as the rewards of 'aionios' life, (life that is age-lasting).
For a detailed article and many other Bible translations that translate this more correctly, see here.
God is lawful, and is law itself if you want to strip things down to their bare essential or principle.....whether we consider Deity being 'personal' or 'impersonal',.....the law of compensation still prevails, and it is wholly fair and just, since one only reaps what he sows (measure for measure) and according to his own deeds and mental condition does he enjoy or suffer from the results or his actions. - Now how far this can extend on or be "effected" depends on the sin being committed as far as quality, degree, duration goes, etc. Therefore, as long as one can 'sow' anything (make any motive of thought, speak any word, or act in any way)...something is 'reaped' in return. Anything subject to conditioning, is under karmic law (whether you claim to a Christian, Buddhist, hindu, jew or pagan...it matters not....the law remains).
Again, there is no reason to assume an age-lasting correction or punishment has to last as long as 'age-lasting life', since the duration of suffering and enjoyment can vary among the wicked and the just. And don't forget, even with your black n white duality-comparison assumption here, the wicked and righteousness are still reaping what they sow, as long as they continue to sow anything. So their 'reaping' will be compensatory to their sowing, to whatever degree, quality or duration. Its all 'relative' and 'conditional'.
Last edited:
Derf
Well-known member
So you apparently think the punishment, while not eternal, still can last for "an age". Is "age" ever a short amount of time?
If the punishment can last a "long" time, then going back to Timotheos's idea that people's flesh will burn up (be consumed completely) in hell (which appears to me a "physical" thing" by his descriptions), how is it that some people will burn up quickly, and some burn up slowly?
Is the "soul" burning"? Or the "spirit"? Or just the body?
This is probably more of a question for Timotheos than for you.
I've been on a nice vacation from TOL. It is very nice to not have people insult me.
Goodbye
Derf
Well-known member
Welcome back--I hope it won't be as temporary as it sounds in your post.
I didn't mean it as an insult. I've enjoyed a fair amount of this topic, and you've made me think more carefully about it. My question is a real one, that was intended to help think through the issue better.
Here's the question again, if you're interested at all in considering it:
Derf said:
You mistake my view.
I believe that the punishment IS eternal.
The punishment of being burnt up, and remaining burnt up for ALL ETERNITY cannot be said to be anything BUT eternal. It is an eternal punishment. This is something that the ECTists have decided to not understand, although it is very clear.
Derf
Well-known member
Ok, my apologies for misrepresenting your position.
Can I still ask, How long does the burning up process take? Is it somewhat relative to how long it would take for a physical body to be consumed by fire?
Since the Bible specifically states that the wicked will be burnt up like chaff, that is what I believe.
Since the Bible does not specifically state how long it takes, I won't speculate on that. I don't even want to guess at how long it takes to burn a body to ash. I've never done anything like that. Sorry.
God's Truth
New member
You have also done that to others here.
God's Truth
New member
How do resurrected bodies burn and die forever?
How do resurrected bodies live forever?
God's Truth
New member
How can they die?
They are spiritual bodies.
Our spirits do not even die, so how does a spiritual body die?
1 Corinthians 15:53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
If they do not inherit eternal life, they will die and remain dead forever. Only those who have eternal life will live forever. How can someone who does not have eternal remain alive forever? Why do you think the wicked who are resurrected for judgment will not be burned up? Why wouldn't they? Does the Bible say anywhere that the wicked will receive eternal life? Does the Bible say that the wicked are resurrected fireproof?
Please look at the facts. Look at who is continually insulting others. It is not me.
Yeah, but how?
God's Truth
New member
You have insulted me just because I spoke about my beliefs here.