Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[freelight]

Spiritual stunnation........

Spiritual stunnation........

God is Karma - God doesn't have to "believe" anything, He IS.

Indeed, there are many truths in your statement above,...its power packed! - You sometimes surprise me

 

[way 2 go]

No one has to believe in 'karma'

you shouldn't because it is a lie

(action and its attending consequences) for it to exist, since it is self-evident.

you mean all the success evil is having these days

Life is a series of movements, cause and effect.

not karma today not ever.


Mar 4:24 And he said to them, "Pay attention to what you hear: with the measure you use, it will be measured to you, and still more will be added to you.
Mar 4:25 For to the one who has, more will be given,and from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away."

 

[patrick jane]

you shouldn't because it is a lie


you mean all the success evil is having these days




not karma today not ever.


Mar 4:24 And he said to them, "Pay attention to what you hear: with the measure you use, it will be measured to you, and still more will be added to you.
Mar 4:25 For to the one who has, more will be given,and from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away."

But Way2go, those scriptures tell the story of Karma. "Pay attention to what you hear: with the measure you use, it will be measured to you, and still more will be added to you." Basically that's Karma, it's only a word with a definition.

 

[Derf]

No one has to believe in 'karma' (action and its attending consequences) for it to exist, since it is self-evident. Life is a series of movements, cause and effect.

I agree one doesn't have to believe in karma for it to be effective, just as believing in God isn't required for Him to judge, whether with ECT or short-term conscious torment. It's the law-maker and executor that gets to decide, assuming he has the power to execute his law.

Which brings us back to karma. If karma is a law, it is impersonal. An impersonal law is impotent without an executor, unless the universe is impersonal in its generation. If the universe is impersonal in its generation, then our discussions are moot--we will all return to dust from which we come with no hope of eternity.

Karma, then, is a useless concept without a God to enforce it. And if God really enforces His own laws, whether that be karma or not, we should really want to know which laws are in force--it is "vitally" important.

 

[patrick jane]

I agree one doesn't have to believe in karma for it to be effective,.

The Instant Karma is the worst - It happens when we die - It's gonna get ya !!

 

[way 2 go]

But Way2go, those scriptures tell the story of Karma. "Pay attention to what you hear: with the measure you use, it will be measured to you, and still more will be added to you." Basically that's Karma, it's only a word with a definition.

started a new thread instead Christianity vs karma

 

[patrick jane]

started a new thread instead Christianity vs karma

yes, i saw that -

 

[freelight]

Actually, you're just riding on the 'exhaust',...but kudos for the effort.....

Actually, you're just riding on the 'exhaust',...but kudos for the effort.....

started a new thread instead Christianity vs karma

Well congratulations,....I can already see the 'crash and burn' route of that, upon which you'll be referred to what I've already written about it with of course more of my commentary (If I choose to keep engaging this topic with you), wherewith the hamster wheel will keep spinning, until you acknowledge your misconception and presumptions about the nature or function of 'karma' while throwing various bible verses up on the screen in apologetic zeal, since you must keep 'defending' your 'belief' and 'dogma' which your 'locked in' mind-set must do, to keep itself intact, lest your castle of cards fall, and your 'faith' is discovered to be all for naught.

Don't forget,....we've been thru this before on other subjects as well, upon which the same antics are employed,...and such is how 'apologetics' go, from your traditional end of the spectrum. And to whose surprise?

I just happened to rove over my previous commentaries on 'karma' and 'blogged' a conversation with God's Truth on the subject -

Karma, the Law of Compensation

What you cant deny or refute is the 'fact' that all actions have consequential re-actions, in their sequence of cause/effect, and such is a fact of universal law in creation, since all potentials are being actualized or determined by movements along a line of associated movements, and so goes the law of seedtime and harvest, sowing and reaping (measure by measure) which is EXPRESSLY affirmed in passages in the Bible, since on that point the writers naturally 'recognized' such universal laws of nature....and put it in the bible, to their credit.

ACTIONS are indicators and determiners of 'conditions',...that's why there are passages that say we are all judged by our WORKS. - thought, word and deed. This must be an essential principle under the provision of divine justice and mercy (as a function of law), in the eschatology of souls and their destiny, to whatever ends choices and actions actually do determine conditions, or ultimatums of 'life' and 'death'.

 

[Lon]

But Way2go, those scriptures tell the story of Karma. "Pay attention to what you hear: with the measure you use, it will be measured to you, and still more will be added to you." Basically that's Karma, it's only a word with a definition.

If that is all it means to you, but for the Eastern Indian, it is about Sanskrit reincarnation. You have to always realize the breadth of a definition and the culture it comes from so in this case, Karma/Sanskrit is unbiblical. The biblical term that we reap what we sow is more accurate. The Gospel is about God's intervention in the person and work of Jesus Christ, which all other religions deny and reject.

God isn't 'in' me until I am a cleansed vessel by the blood of Christ, prepared as a 'new creation' who's existence is forever changed and indwelled by the living God 2 Corinthians 5:17. Our faith and experience with God is far different than the man still walking in the flesh. Karma is the word of a different religion that believes as far as Karma goes, you will walk as a bug in your next life if you blow it in this one type of religious expression. Hebrews 9:27

 

[Derf]

The Instant Karma is the worst - It happens when we die - It's gonna get ya !!

Well, it's either instant or eternal. That's what this thread is trying to decide. But I think Lon is right that we trivialize karma when we equate it to just compensation for our works (reaping what we sow).

 

[genuineoriginal]

Looks like you completely missed the most important part

G622
ἀπόλλυμι apóllymi, ap-ol'-loo-mee; from G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully, literally or figuratively:—destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

You are claiming that death is merely a figurative term for an eternal life of suffering.
There is no rational excuse for doing that.

On the other hand, I claim that both eternal life and complete destruction are taken as literal.

 

[chrysostom]

You are claiming that death is merely a figurative term for an eternal life of suffering.
There is no rational excuse for doing that.

they want the others to suffer
-and
-that is not how you love your enemies

 

[ok doser]

they want the others to suffer
-and
-that is not how you love your enemies

i will love them as God loves them

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

 

[Derf]

You are claiming that death is merely a figurative term for an eternal life of suffering.
There is no rational excuse for doing that.

On the other hand, I claim that both eternal life and complete destruction are taken as literal.

Now it's "complete destruction"? I thought just "destruction" was complete enough for you. Now, if the bible doesn't say "complete destruction", is it talking about "complete destruction" or just a "partial destruction"?

Does it make sense to add an extra word to the bible to make sure it means the concept you are striving for............and then say it needs to be taken as "literal"?

 

[Bright Raven]

Revelation 20:11-15 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Judgment at the Throne of God
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Now it's "complete destruction"? I thought just "destruction" was complete enough for you. Now, if the bible doesn't say "complete destruction", is it talking about "complete destruction" or just a "partial destruction"?

Does it make sense to add an extra word to the bible to make sure it means the concept you are striving for............and then say it needs to be taken as "literal"?

Are you ignoring a word and claiming I am trying to add the word you are ignoring?

G622
ἀπόλλυμι apóllymi, ap-ol'-loo-mee; from G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully

Yep,

To destroy fully is complete destruction.

 

[freelight]

i will love them as God loves them

Which apparently is no love at all.

 

[freelight]

More on karma.....

More on karma.....

If that is all it means to you, but for the Eastern Indian, it is about Sanskrit reincarnation. You have to always realize the breadth of a definition and the culture it comes from so in this case, Karma/Sanskrit is unbiblical. The biblical term that we reap what we sow is more accurate. The Gospel is about God's intervention in the person and work of Jesus Christ, which all other religions deny and reject.

While 'karma' and 'reincarnation' are certainly inter-linked, because we reap what we sow thru-out various life experiences,...the universal law of 'karma' is wholly all-inclusive and pervading, since all creation is continuously unfolding/moving/cycling in the creative process....so 'karma' encompasses all that is 'creative'.....every movement in the realm of 'conditional existence'. It not only effects individual experience, but national, planetary, cosmic levels of creation too,...as the law of balance/equilibrium.

Karma, the Law of Compensation

God isn't 'in' me until I am a cleansed vessel by the blood of Christ, prepared as a 'new creation' who's existence is forever changed and indwelled by the living God 2 Corinthians 5:17. Our faith and experience with God is far different than the man still walking in the flesh. Karma is the word of a different religion that believes as far as Karma goes, you will walk as a bug in your next life if you blow it in this one type of religious expression. Hebrews 9:27

You're apparently operating on a western mind's understanding of 'karma', misconstrued in various ways which is common. Also, in the schools I'm familiar with humans do not usually reincarnate as animals, but humans stay human and can ascend to divinity in their own sphere of perfection, or ascend higher, but never descend into any other life form. Of course there are various schools that hold to variations or allowancs of the process of 'incarnating'. Again, 'karma' simply means 'action', 'doing',...which by nature, has effects/consequences. While an eastern understanding within a Hindu/Buddhist/Jainist view has a different nuance or religious context/cosmology associated with 'karma'....this does not mean it is wholly different than the concept of 'sowing and reaping' found in the bible, since its a universal law. Wherever there is action, there is 're-action' (effect/consequence). Again, karma is universal....understood properly.

 

[Derf]

Are you ignoring a word and claiming I am trying to add the word you are ignoring?

G622
ἀπόλλυμι apóllymi, ap-ol'-loo-mee; from G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully

Yep,

To destroy fully is complete destruction.

Yes, touche'. I was indeed focusing on the wrong part of your post.

 

[way 2 go]

You are claiming that death is merely a figurative term for an eternal life of suffering.
There is no rational excuse for doing that.

2Co 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men;

On the other hand, I claim that both eternal life and complete destruction are taken as literal.

I take this literal

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.