God's Truth
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Why don't you answer the question instead of being funny?
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
Why don't you answer the question instead of being funny?
God's Truth
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The Bible tells us that our spirits NEVER DIE.
The Bible says the righteous AND the wicked will be raised.
The Bible says we will be raised immortal.
So then, how does something immortal die?
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
terms.....
terms.....
Hi Derf,
I'm just noting that 'aionios' refers to an indefinite period of time, an age, epoch, noting the definition of the root word thru its history of use. I reject ECT on principle alone, besides other problems. For a God to keep souls in a state of eternal suffering with no relief or hope of salvation for all eternity is insanity besides the most abject form of cruelty imaginable. The word 'aionios' refers to 'age-during' or 'age-lasting', so its dispensational. (this could refer to the judgment or sentence itself, being 'age-lasting'...so the judgment is 'terminal') - the problem is translating the word into the English word 'eternal' or 'everlasting' which changes its meaning connotation. Even so though,....the term "eternal punishment", can mean the punishment is eternal in its finality and effect. But the definition of 'age-lasting' can also be used to support Universalism, where the wicked undergo a period of 'correction/purification/purging' and are then given 'age-lasting' LIFE along with the righteous after their restoration. But back to 'conditional immortality'.... Once a soul suffers the second death (in fullness),...its instantaneous. Now as to if any unrepentant souls who are at the point of no return undergo a period of conscious suffering before they are disintegrated, who knows? There may be degrees of duration or 'reaping' for the law of compensation to be fully satisfied, before DEATH fully consummates.
I don't see any flesh burning since at physical death, bodies disintegrate and return to dust (the elements)...but the 'second death' in a lake of fire refers to the soul being destroyed, disintegrated. If the soul can be destroyed in a lake of fire....then those souls DIE. They are disintegrated forever. Some Universalists assume these souls are 'purified' and only what is 'sinful' DIES while the soul is saved somehow.
This is a complex question, but if we are speaking of the second death, its assumed there is no resurrection from such a death, although some elemental parts, eternal atoms or some 'spirit-essence' may return to God, while all the mortal temporal aspects of the person (personality) are wholly terminated.
My former views on this for any interested begin here.
One of the best sites supporting 'Conditional Immortality' is here.
terms.....
Hi Derf,
I'm just noting that 'aionios' refers to an indefinite period of time, an age, epoch, noting the definition of the root word thru its history of use. I reject ECT on principle alone, besides other problems. For a God to keep souls in a state of eternal suffering with no relief or hope of salvation for all eternity is insanity besides the most abject form of cruelty imaginable. The word 'aionios' refers to 'age-during' or 'age-lasting', so its dispensational. (this could refer to the judgment or sentence itself, being 'age-lasting'...so the judgment is 'terminal') - the problem is translating the word into the English word 'eternal' or 'everlasting' which changes its meaning connotation. Even so though,....the term "eternal punishment", can mean the punishment is eternal in its finality and effect. But the definition of 'age-lasting' can also be used to support Universalism, where the wicked undergo a period of 'correction/purification/purging' and are then given 'age-lasting' LIFE along with the righteous after their restoration. But back to 'conditional immortality'.... Once a soul suffers the second death (in fullness),...its instantaneous. Now as to if any unrepentant souls who are at the point of no return undergo a period of conscious suffering before they are disintegrated, who knows? There may be degrees of duration or 'reaping' for the law of compensation to be fully satisfied, before DEATH fully consummates.
I don't see any flesh burning since at physical death, bodies disintegrate and return to dust (the elements)...but the 'second death' in a lake of fire refers to the soul being destroyed, disintegrated. If the soul can be destroyed in a lake of fire....then those souls DIE. They are disintegrated forever. Some Universalists assume these souls are 'purified' and only what is 'sinful' DIES while the soul is saved somehow.
This is a complex question, but if we are speaking of the second death, its assumed there is no resurrection from such a death, although some elemental parts, eternal atoms or some 'spirit-essence' may return to God, while all the mortal temporal aspects of the person (personality) are wholly terminated.
My former views on this for any interested begin here.
One of the best sites supporting 'Conditional Immortality' is here.
Oh Please...
Yes, the Bible says WE will be raised immortal. WE have inherited eternal life. The Bible NEVER says that the wicked will be raised immortal. The Bible says that THEY will perish. Someone who inherits immortality will never die again. Someone who does not inherit immortality will certainly die.
Do you understand now, or do you wish to raise some other objection to the truth of the Bible?
No. I did not. It is not insulting you to disagree with you and agree with God's Truth instead of you.
I've searched all over this thread and I simply cannot find any place where I've insulted you.
If I ever insulted you, I apologize. Could you point me to the post where you think that I've insulted you? I honestly do not recall ever insulting you. I do not believe that I ever did insult you. If you could show me the post that you are referring to, it would really help a lot.
God's Truth
New member
Your request is insincere. This is a long thread, and probably not the only thread where we spoke about this topic. I am not going to waste my time looking for a post so that you believe me. How about I tell you what you said to me, then you can tell me if it is something you would say.
You said I just want people to be tortured forever. Does that sound like an insult you are willing to admit to saying?
God's Truth
New member
Just read what you wrote here. You have an insulting nature and do not see it.
God's Truth
New member
You do not even acknowledge the human spirit as having form.
The spirit does not die, even after the death of the body.
Show me scripture where spirits die, and I will consider your beliefs.
God's Truth
New member
We are flesh and spirit.
Hebrews 12:9, Zechariah 12:1, and Malachi 2:15.
Zechariah 12:1 shows us that the spirit has a form
Hebrews 12:9, Zechariah 12:1, and Malachi 2:15.
Zechariah 12:1 shows us that the spirit has a form
God's Truth
New member
Timotheos,
I would like to discuss this more with you, but when the discussion gets deep, you merely start insulting.
I can be shown the Truth, if that is what you have to convince me of.
Tell me, how are you going to teach me about eternal punishment if you do not even acknowledge we have spirits that live on after the death of our bodies?
I would like to discuss this more with you, but when the discussion gets deep, you merely start insulting.
I can be shown the Truth, if that is what you have to convince me of.
Tell me, how are you going to teach me about eternal punishment if you do not even acknowledge we have spirits that live on after the death of our bodies?
God's Truth
New member
Jesus described hell as an unquenchable fire(Matthew 3:12), so then, why is it the fire never goes out if there is no one in the fire?
...a place of eternal fire,(Matthew 25:41)...if the fire is eternal, meaning around forever, why is the punishment only lasting a shorter time when the same word 'eternal' is used for punishment?
eternal punishment(Matthew 25:46), and as a place of torment, fire, and agony(Luke 16:23-24). Jesus taught specifically about hell many times in his ministry (Matthew 5:22, 29-30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15,33; Mark 9:43-47; Luke 12:6; 16:23).
I understand what you are saying that the punishment is eternal, in that the person does not get to exist anymore; therefore, the real question maybe about the agony.
Can you prove to me the agony stops?
...a place of eternal fire,(Matthew 25:41)...if the fire is eternal, meaning around forever, why is the punishment only lasting a shorter time when the same word 'eternal' is used for punishment?
eternal punishment(Matthew 25:46), and as a place of torment, fire, and agony(Luke 16:23-24). Jesus taught specifically about hell many times in his ministry (Matthew 5:22, 29-30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15,33; Mark 9:43-47; Luke 12:6; 16:23).
I understand what you are saying that the punishment is eternal, in that the person does not get to exist anymore; therefore, the real question maybe about the agony.
Can you prove to me the agony stops?
God's Truth
New member
Derf, you had the question that will get into the deepest part of this topic.
The question is how long the agony will last.
The true core of this debate is it must come down to the part about agony and how long that agony will last
The question is how long the agony will last.
The true core of this debate is it must come down to the part about agony and how long that agony will last
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God's Truth
New member
We can see from the Old Testament that 'agony' was always remedied by God coming to save the person in agony.
The only other way a person could be saved from agony is death.
The rich man was in agony after this life.
Was his agony only going to be the equivalent to a lifetime on earth?
Luke 16:24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
Luke 16:25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.
Acts 2:24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.
Those scriptures cause me to believe the agony is the equivalent to a normal lifetime of human life.
In this next scripture, Jesus shows that there is a time limit to the torturing. This shows me that God did not want us to know of a time limit for agony in Hell, unless it be forever and ever, as the smoke of their torment.
Revelation 9:5 They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes.
Revelation 16:10 The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues in agony
Revelations 14:11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."
So tell me, how does the smoke of torment rise for ever and ever, but not their torment?
What is causing the smoke if it is not their torment?
The only other way a person could be saved from agony is death.
The rich man was in agony after this life.
Was his agony only going to be the equivalent to a lifetime on earth?
Luke 16:24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
Luke 16:25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.
Acts 2:24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.
Those scriptures cause me to believe the agony is the equivalent to a normal lifetime of human life.
In this next scripture, Jesus shows that there is a time limit to the torturing. This shows me that God did not want us to know of a time limit for agony in Hell, unless it be forever and ever, as the smoke of their torment.
Revelation 9:5 They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes.
Revelation 16:10 The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues in agony
Revelations 14:11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."
So tell me, how does the smoke of torment rise for ever and ever, but not their torment?
What is causing the smoke if it is not their torment?
God's Truth
New member
When a person dies, it is said that they now have rest.
However, if they go to Hell, the scripture says they have no rest.
So then, how do you get the agony has a time of ending if there is NO REST?
However, if they go to Hell, the scripture says they have no rest.
So then, how do you get the agony has a time of ending if there is NO REST?
God's Truth
New member
I only want God's Truth.
God's Word does not contradict.
So then, I can be convinced of the Truth if it does not have contradictions.
God's Word does not contradict.
So then, I can be convinced of the Truth if it does not have contradictions.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
Really?
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Dividing 'soul' from 'spirit'.....similar or different?
Dividing 'soul' from 'spirit'.....similar or different?
From a Jewish perspective and their scritpures,...the 'soul' is a combination of the physical body and the 'spirit' (breath) of God, but there is no doctrine of the 'immortal soul' taught specifically there, for a soul can 'die' or perish with the physical body unless there is some kind of resurrection or 'reincarnation' whereby the soul is preserved, or where it is given the gift of immortality. The 'immortal soul' doctrine was adopted from Greek philosophy in the development of traditional church theology, so its somehow assumed that the soul is inherently immortal (by man traditionalists),...however...no Jewish scripture expressly teaches this and in the NT, immortality is something that is granted as a "gift", its something that man "puts on"...thru a miraculous resurrection.
Many passages support the premise of 'conditional immortality'....since it is conditional to one's choosing eternal life and qualifying to be made immortal....while the alternative of death comes by way of sin or iniquity. "The soul that sins dies". The OT says the spirit returns to God,....so whether there is an actual creation as a 'human spirit' or that the 'spirit' is God's breath that returns to him as some kind of impersonal life-force is open to speculation, but if a soul is granted immortality, obviously the person and the spirit of God are 'fused' together as one, never to die again....the 'person' receives, and merges with the divine nature of God himself, thereby becoming immortal. 'Immortal' here refers also to the condition of immortality, the divine nature itself. If this immortality is something given to man, he apparently did not have it before, hence it is a gift. Those who undergo the second death, are wholly disintegrated....the soul DIES (finally and eternally), since the physical body dissolves and the spirit (breath) is not returned to that person, but goes back to God (the Source of all). Whether that 'spirit' of God carries on and is breathed into another 'person' is open to speculation and we get into other fields such as metaphysics.
In any case, as I've shared earlier.....there is much support for 'conditional immorality', and little for ECT (when you look at all that is against it). If immortality is a gift, then it is something bestowed, earned. Only those who qualify to receive the gift, obtain it. Hence the offer of 'life' or 'death' is literally and conditionally true. My last post holds here.
Finally in a general sense,...traditional Christians and nomimal religionists of every sort tend to believe or 'assume' that the human spirit or soul is eternal, and cannot die. But passages expressly teach the soul that sins shall die, the wages of sin is death, there is a 'second death', the wicked shall be destroyed, etc.
From a liberal Spiritualist view, also from the more ancient schools of Greek and Vedic philosophy,...the concept of an 'immortal soul' prevails as something 'inherent' or innate,...even if that 'soul' or 'atman' goes thru a process of reincarnation or re-embodiments taking on new personalities,...its assumed somehow that there is an eternal/immortal element in man....while other aspects of the human person are subject to change. Again, we dive back into how we define terms, the different aspects of man's nature, his constitution, what parts of him are 'immortal' (if any) and those parts that are 'mortal' (subject to death).
Dividing 'soul' from 'spirit'.....similar or different?
From a Jewish perspective and their scritpures,...the 'soul' is a combination of the physical body and the 'spirit' (breath) of God, but there is no doctrine of the 'immortal soul' taught specifically there, for a soul can 'die' or perish with the physical body unless there is some kind of resurrection or 'reincarnation' whereby the soul is preserved, or where it is given the gift of immortality. The 'immortal soul' doctrine was adopted from Greek philosophy in the development of traditional church theology, so its somehow assumed that the soul is inherently immortal (by man traditionalists),...however...no Jewish scripture expressly teaches this and in the NT, immortality is something that is granted as a "gift", its something that man "puts on"...thru a miraculous resurrection.
Many passages support the premise of 'conditional immortality'....since it is conditional to one's choosing eternal life and qualifying to be made immortal....while the alternative of death comes by way of sin or iniquity. "The soul that sins dies". The OT says the spirit returns to God,....so whether there is an actual creation as a 'human spirit' or that the 'spirit' is God's breath that returns to him as some kind of impersonal life-force is open to speculation, but if a soul is granted immortality, obviously the person and the spirit of God are 'fused' together as one, never to die again....the 'person' receives, and merges with the divine nature of God himself, thereby becoming immortal. 'Immortal' here refers also to the condition of immortality, the divine nature itself. If this immortality is something given to man, he apparently did not have it before, hence it is a gift. Those who undergo the second death, are wholly disintegrated....the soul DIES (finally and eternally), since the physical body dissolves and the spirit (breath) is not returned to that person, but goes back to God (the Source of all). Whether that 'spirit' of God carries on and is breathed into another 'person' is open to speculation and we get into other fields such as metaphysics.
In any case, as I've shared earlier.....there is much support for 'conditional immorality', and little for ECT (when you look at all that is against it). If immortality is a gift, then it is something bestowed, earned. Only those who qualify to receive the gift, obtain it. Hence the offer of 'life' or 'death' is literally and conditionally true. My last post holds here.
Finally in a general sense,...traditional Christians and nomimal religionists of every sort tend to believe or 'assume' that the human spirit or soul is eternal, and cannot die. But passages expressly teach the soul that sins shall die, the wages of sin is death, there is a 'second death', the wicked shall be destroyed, etc.
From a liberal Spiritualist view, also from the more ancient schools of Greek and Vedic philosophy,...the concept of an 'immortal soul' prevails as something 'inherent' or innate,...even if that 'soul' or 'atman' goes thru a process of reincarnation or re-embodiments taking on new personalities,...its assumed somehow that there is an eternal/immortal element in man....while other aspects of the human person are subject to change. Again, we dive back into how we define terms, the different aspects of man's nature, his constitution, what parts of him are 'immortal' (if any) and those parts that are 'mortal' (subject to death).