Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[freelight]

action and consequences.......

action and consequences.......

The brain creates meaning even where none exists. the human brain does things that are instinctive, that we are not aware of. most things, in fact. but yes, eternal conscience or "unconscience" torment is absurd.

Bingo.

i suppose, if people feel no guilt or shame and no anguish or torment for their "evil" actions within a lifetime on earth, then there is a "universal Karma" that must exist.

Definitely, since the universal law of karma exacts its 'terms' and 'consequences' for every thought, word and action.

however, knowing deep inside, how Good and Loving God Is, Following Christ, and understanding what Jesus told Paul to tell EVERYONE, everything makes Perfect sense.

I suppose,...depending on what 'terms' you're referring to

Simon Baker Knows You !

Should I be elated?




pj

 

[Simon Baker]

Bingo.



Definitely, since the universal law of karma exacts its 'terms' and 'consequences' for every thought, word and action.



I suppose,...depending on what 'terms' you're referring to



Should I be elated?




pj

Yes, I will elate you someday. where are you from ?

 

[Simon Baker]

I have looked @ a few Threads and the dialogue. entertaining and emotional. I think it is too early to conclude anything yet

 

[freelight]

elation points.....

elation points.....

Yes, I will elate you someday.

Said the rookie to the veteran

where are you from ?

Spiritually speaking, I'd gather you might assume SOURCE. All that is, is of one universal substance.

Biographically speaking, currently living in Bend, OR. You can also look at our profile that has our 'bio' and lots of other fun information about our selves. Click on my name and choose any option on the file menu. You can also look up a persons last 100 posts, their various threads, signature links, and read up on their own TOL blog. You'll learn to navigate with time.

I have looked @ a few Threads and the dialogue. entertaining and emotional. I think it is too early to conclude anything yet

Way too early, as there is a wide variety here amid the terrain, but you'll get a feel for the 'management', 'moderators' and theological flavor here, with some of us more liberal eclectic ones adding some texture and colour to the scene. Like any 'community' or open forum, you meet all kinds.

For off-forum chats, I've got Yahoo messenger and Facebook, links are 'live'. So,...there's a lot to learn, explore, discover.



pj

 

[Zeke]

very insightful, however, who on earth determines what is truly "wicked", or simply, confusion combined with carnal/animalistic (fleshly) desires and selfish pleasures. when or why does something become "wicked", or remain within the "limits" of "understandable sin" ? That is why ALL Sin died with Christ. once we know this, and Understand the entire Bible, even the New Testamant, we are Saved

Morality is a cultural play ground of diverse opinions, most have traditions/myth when taken literal breed these types of extremes being debated on this thread.

Death relating to the state of the Soul in tombed in a body of matter not the death of the body is the way I would see the death and rebirth pertaining to the divine seed that can't die, that we carry (that pearl) hidden in the field where Able is slain, a type being the prodigal son being termed dead by his father shows this type of meaning of our state while ignorant of who we are, until we wake up and start the journey home.

 

[Zeke]

Well, the terms 'death' and 'life' are symbolic, as if all language wasn't. Here though, we're challenging the concept of ECT. Since the book of Revelation is full of images/symbols, its apt to be 'interpreted' in so many ways,....the 'lake of fire' is a hard image to let go, toss in or out a few crispy critters. A fire burns as long as it has fuel,...then as its consumed, the fires go out, and ashes/dust remains,....the 'term' of the fire is only continuous as the fuel and passion that affords it. Suffering then is not forever, unless one can inflict upon himself an uncurable illness where there is no rest or peace ever.

As far as mirrors, go,...such is the illusion of mind. Creation itself is a reflecting hall of mirrors, but such exists by the creative Light that gives those images their 'appearances' or 'reality', however true or distorted. So, beyond all the 'maya',...'God' is the sole reality, while appearances come and go. Beyond all this, its still insane to believe a benevolent Creator maintains an eternal torment program for naughty kids and fallen angels,....giving them no other alternative but to BURN forever.



pj

Yea that is why I would take all these dramas as pertaining to the inner emotions, and not the cultural perversion of these stories as being actuality. Revelations is the Glossary of the metaphysical stories in then scripture, when taken as literal it flips the intent and aborts its mission to enlightened the sleeping Soul, kinda like coming out the wrong end of Jonas whale.

 

[freelight]

Yea that is why I would take all these dramas as pertaining to the inner emotions, and not the cultural perversion of these stories as being actuality. Revelations is the Glossary of the metaphysical stories in then scripture, when taken as literal it flips the intent and aborts its mission to enlightened the sleeping Soul, kinda like coming out the wrong end of Jonas whale.

pj

 

[Sealeaf]

Eternal="existing in a changeless, timeless, state that has no end or beginning."
Nothing except God is eternal because everything else has a beginning.
So the question is the possibility of endless, not eternal, conscious torment.
So two questions follow from this point; is endless consciousness possible? The answer to that must be "yes", that is the whole point of belief in the afterlife.
The other question, Is it possible to destroy a soul? Conterintuitively there the answer is
"No".
We have a hard time with this because we experience destructive change all the time. We age and die. Our stuff wears out and breaks. But that is all within the local "time" field. Once outside time, change does not happen. "Eternal" life goes on not because God makes a special effort to make it happen but just because that is the nature of things. To paraphrase the Newtonian laws of physics, "things in existence tend to stay in existence unless acted upon by an outside force." Your soul will exist endlessly weather you are "saved" or not.
Will you be conscious? This is tougher. What we know from scripture seems to indicate that souls after death are conscious, if not, why warn us against the pains of Hell. When we have surgery we are not concerned about the operation hurting, we know we will not be conscious for it. We worry about post operative pain because we will be awake for that.
Finally there is the "torment". Clearly there is some effort by God involved in this. There is the "Lake of fire" prepared for rebellious angels. Clearly this is a container. The whole point is that the inhabitants can't leave. There is no bank to crawl out onto. If you are in, you are in. There simply is no exit. The nearest physical analogue would be a black hole. A black hole is the ultimate waste bin. Once you toss something in there you just do not need to give it any further consideration, it is not going to annoy you any more.
but once God has made it, if it is like a black hole, then there is no more work to be done, it is self sustaining. A black hole starts hot and can't cool off because any energy radiated is bent back into it.
My conclusion is that endless conscious torment is entirely possible. What's more, it is the default destination of humanity. It is what will happen to you unless something extraordinary intervenes. Ordinary people go to hell.
Extra ordinary people, saints, avoid hell by making themselves into something useful to God. God selects those that have the qualities He wants and discards the rest. Hell is the waste bin. Ordinary people go to hell.

The point of creation is to make, or grow, something God could not just create directly. As near as I can figure out that commodity is aware, intelligent, creative, souls who have freely chosen to love God and bind themselves to Him. In other words "Saints". What God wants them for I don't know for sure,but it seems likely He has a project for which they are necessary ingredients. One hint is to ask what God can't create. He can't make another artist's creation. He can make something as good, but if He does, it is His, not the work of an independent mind. One thing He might need us for is as decorators. Like the sculptors who carved statues for Cathedrals. They are not architects, but they make the Cathedral beautiful.

 

[Ben Masada]

Obviously you haven't read Dr. Simon Greenleaf's book: "Testimony of the Evangelists." If you had, you'd realize that the gospels are some of THE MOST reliable books in antiquity, if not THE MOST RELIABLE, simply by the weight of the evidence presented in Them and the methods and character of the ones doing the writing. His book is available from several sources online for free.

May I suggest you at the very least read a synopsis of the book, found HERE.

Dr. Greenleaf was one of the founding fathers of Harvard Law School and was professor there (indeed the world's foremost authority on evidence in jurisprudence). He was a staunch atheist until he was challenged by one of his colleagues to prove The Bible to be in error or fake. He took up the challenge and studied the four Gospels. He not only found them to prove that they are accurate, he found that we have more evidence of Jesus' life than ANYONE in antiquity. He discovered that Jesus is Who He said He is and made Him his Lord and God.

It means that he never read the real Scriptures of Jesus which is the Hebrew Bible. Jesus was a Jew and, every time he referred to the Truth as being the Word of God, he had the Tanach in mind, not the NT which he never even dreamed would ever rise. The main role of the NT is to replace the Tanach.

 

[Ben Masada]

Actually, The True Manna from Heaven, Jesus, came to earth to give you His Flesh as food and His Blood as drink. Without eating His Flesh and drinking His Blood you have no life in you.

In that case, he made a big mistake because I am neither a cannibal nor a vampire.

 

[Ben Masada]

That's one presentation of Jesus, but just what 'version' of Judaism he was faithful to, is another question.

Jesus was a Rabbi aka religious Jew which renders your question redundant.

I don't know if that 'interpretation' or 'assumption' is the only one available. You'll note Jesus directly challenges the 'Torah' in many other passages.

Rather the opposite is true. Jesus came to confirm the Torah down to the letter. (Mat. 5:17-19)

I don't agree with this 'assumption', just because the Torah is lacking any 'revelation' of soul's sharing in or partaking of the divine nature, receiving immortality. The NT rejects your position.

The above conveys only the fact that you have never read the Torah.

- well,...you know how one person's 'perception' of 'reality' might differ in some respects than another. What is reality? How does one's limited perceptions and assumptions of 'reality' affect 'reality'?

Jesus was fundamentally loyal to Jewish reality.

Sometimes we have to keep questioning our concept of 'reality'.

When a Jew speaks about reality, he or she is speaking about Judaism.

 

[Aimiel]

In that case, he made a big mistake because I am neither a cannibal nor a vampire.

The veil over your eyes will one day be lifted.

 

[aikido7]

Heaven and hell dynamics were a later tradition than the ministry of Jesus.

When we turn to the theological and philosophical literature in the Christian tradition (as we would in any of the other great religious traditions as well) you will run up against a bewildering variety of different (and often inconsistent) theological views.

 

[Word based mystic]

yes and no answers

yes and no answers

Eternal="existing in a changeless, timeless, state that has no end or beginning."
Nothing except God is eternal because everything else has a beginning.
So the question is the possibility of endless, not eternal, conscious torment.
So two questions follow from this point; is endless consciousness possible? The answer to that must be "yes", that is the whole point of belief in the afterlife.
The other question, Is it possible to destroy a soul? Conterintuitively there the answer is
"No".
We have a hard time with this because we experience destructive change all the time. We age and die. Our stuff wears out and breaks. But that is all within the local "time" field. Once outside time, change does not happen. "Eternal" life goes on not because God makes a special effort to make it happen but just because that is the nature of things. To paraphrase the Newtonian laws of physics, "things in existence tend to stay in existence unless acted upon by an outside force." Your soul will exist endlessly weather you are "saved" or not.
Will you be conscious? This is tougher. What we know from scripture seems to indicate that souls after death are conscious, if not, why warn us against the pains of Hell. When we have surgery we are not concerned about the operation hurting, we know we will not be conscious for it. We worry about post operative pain because we will be awake for that.
Finally there is the "torment". Clearly there is some effort by God involved in this. There is the "Lake of fire" prepared for rebellious angels. Clearly this is a container. The whole point is that the inhabitants can't leave. There is no bank to crawl out onto. If you are in, you are in. There simply is no exit. The nearest physical analogue would be a black hole. A black hole is the ultimate waste bin. Once you toss something in there you just do not need to give it any further consideration, it is not going to annoy you any more.
but once God has made it, if it is like a black hole, then there is no more work to be done, it is self sustaining. A black hole starts hot and can't cool off because any energy radiated is bent back into it.
My conclusion is that endless conscious torment is entirely possible. What's more, it is the default destination of humanity. It is what will happen to you unless something extraordinary intervenes. Ordinary people go to hell.

you ignore quite a bit of scripture with your above speculations and yes and no answers.

The soul is not eternal
yet the spirit which is spiritually birthed in people that are born again is eternal.

the reward for people not born again is NOT eternal life of any kind.
but rather eternal damnation/judgement, that judgement is eternal/permanent death with no chance of life. Eternal/permanent destruction accomplishes this. (Eternal) fire will bring about what fire is meant to accomplish destruction and death. and that includes hell and death itself being (consumed).
The word forever is relating to a time frame (aeon) or of a certain age parameter.
that parameter scripture describes as being until the heavens and earth are destroyed and a (new) heaven and earth shall come about where there is no death neither tears or sorrow.
assigning this material world as eternal is not scriptural.
giving free will to men and then eternal torment if they don't choose your path is not Fatherly. It is not consistent with a fathers heart.
If one of your own children after giving them free will chose to not walk your path Would you then take them in a shed or barn chain them up and cause someone or something to torment them day and night forever without ending their life eventually?? sadistic.

Genesis relates that God did not want adam to live in the state of misery, decay and sin for eternity so he kicked them out of the garden lest they take and eat of the tree of life in that state.
anyone with a fatherly heart can see and understand the sickness of the position of eternal torment.
please do a word study on death destruction and eternal, you will find they mean exactly what they imply, not some twisted opposite meaning.
spirit inherits eternal life in christ, the spirit is then a house capable of carrying our conscience and emotions defined as the soul.
soul and flesh do not inherit life in any kind especially eternal if they do not have an eternal spirit to carry them.

eternal conscious torment is the sickest doctrine i have ever heard and follows nothing of the fatherly character or main themes of scripture.

 

[freelight]

Getting to 'issues' at hand.......

Getting to 'issues' at hand.......

~*~*~

I didn't want cut/paste and go thru the multi-layering in posting the whole dialogue here, so readers can see here then follow along below -

Jesus was a Rabbi aka religious Jew which renders your question redundant.

My former question of what 'version' of 'Judaism' Jesus was, still stands, it is not redundant,...there were at least 3 'versions'(schools) of Judaism in Jesus time, and many more today. 'Religious' Jew is a somewhat generic term.

Rather the opposite is true. Jesus came to confirm the Torah down to the letter. (Mat. 5:17-19)

Not really, since Jesus did challenge many commonly accepted sayings accepted by the people of the time, see the sermon on the mount. While its claimed he came to fulfill the law and prophets, he did on his own terms, in a new way.

The above conveys only the fact that you have never read the Torah.

No, it simply means what it means...that the OT did not have a full revelation of the immortality of man, that man could become a partaker of the divine nature and actually HAVE 'eternal life',...the very life of God in his being. Older religious traditions and schools of philosophy did teach this concept, and it was further expanded in the NT.

Jesus was fundamentally loyal to Jewish reality.

That is one view, but notice its a 'version' of reality, called 'Jewish'. Reality itself however is what it is. It is all that is.

When a Jew speaks about reality, he or she is speaking about Judaism.

Again, which 'version'? You got many denominations today, although of course some core doctrines are commonly accepted, but there is a variety and differences upon some views within Judaism,...orthodox, reformed, conservative, liberal, kabalistic, Hasidic, etc.

'Reality' in its pure essence is something that transcends all religious denominations, yet includes all, since it is That Which IS (absolute reality itself, pure being, pure awareness). You can call that universal source 'God', if you like...although He/She/It is known by many other wonderful names among the world's religious traditions.



pj

 

[freelight]

Bump

 

[Zeke]

It means that he never read the real Scriptures of Jesus which is the Hebrew Bible. Jesus was a Jew and, every time he referred to the Truth as being the Word of God, he had the Tanach in mind, not the NT which he never even dreamed would ever rise. The main role of the NT is to replace the Tanach.

And a Samarian, Egyptian, etc.... deity before the Jews latched on to the teaching and claimed it for them selves like any good little elitist group would.

 

[freelight]

soles to the fire.............

soles to the fire.............

And a Samarian, Egyptian, etc.... deity before the Jews latched on to the teaching and claimed it for them selves like any good little elitist group would.

Careful there,......you may become a 'crispy critter' :chuckle:


My earlier collection of commentary here.



pj

 

[Zeke]

Careful there,......you may become a 'crispy critter' :chuckle:


My earlier collection of commentary here.



pj

Got Asbestos? Not to worried seeing Jonah/Jesus/second born through scripture which is the spiritual Seed, was also in the watery grave/lake of fire/hell/belly of the whale/Leviathan/etc.........one of the traditional missing links to Esoteric Kingdom teaching gone literal for to long, that needs some dogma behavioral schooling

 

[Ben Masada]

The veil over your eyes will one day be lifted.

...and the veil over yours is already hiding your eyes as you have chosen the right avatar to symbolize your condition.