Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
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Ben Masada
New member
I confess I don't know what you are talking about. What is it that the Samarian, Egyptian, etc claimed for themselves before the Jews or better said, Abraham, the first "Jew" so to speak?
Ben Masada
New member
And what will I see, only darkness? That's what Paul meant by believing by faith and not by sight. (II Cor. 5:7) Those who walk by faith, walk in the darkness; while those who walk by sight, walk with understanding.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Getting back......
Getting back......
Some believe so,...however there are also some who believe Jesus was more of an Essene, as the 3 primary Jewish groups at Jesus time were Pharisees, Saducees and the Essenes. Some practices and beliefs of early Christians are very similar to Essene ways, so there is possible indications of a merging or borrowing from these group-sentiments. Some believe John the Baptist, Jesus, Mary and Joseph were also Essenes, but that's another thread. There are also supports for Jesus connection with the Essenes from info. gathered from past life regressions which are most interesting. I used to have a thread on 'The Essenes: ancient and modern day schools'.
I speak of Jesus questioning the ole 'eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth' concept, and there may have been other Jewish beliefs/customs that Jesus did challenge (Sabbath day observance, etc.)...so he did re-interpret or rennovate some Jewish forms of traditional custom or belief and some common universal assumptions.
This is of course debatable, since its been held by various schools that although a soul has a beginning in time, it can take upon itself immortality, having immortality-potential, if it so chooses eternal life and meets the qualifications to partake of the divine nature. While 'God' alone has immorality originally, there is no reason to believe that he could not grant immortality to those souls who are thus qualified and willing to be like him.
I think every religious tradition has its offerings, whether how many sects within each,....one must evaluate what is available and choose the best teachings.
Indeed,....'God' alone is absolute reality itself, whether 'personalized' or 'non-personal' or any variation thereof,...while everything else is relative to that original Being, dependent on it for its existence. If a soul can accept, take on, surrender to, become merged with, transformed into the same essence or nature of Deity, then so it is.
If 'God' can put the seed of his immortality in man, then that seed can spring up and grow up in maturity, immortalizing the soul. - such is the gift of eternal life, if a soul should choose LIFE. It still remains that the spirit-essence/consciousness of 'God' is immortal in nature, and its presence in man has the potential to make immortal the soul, and naturally so. If this could not be, the promise of eternal life could not be.
I lean towards immortality as a spiritualist (a view both preferential and intuitive), so naturally gravitate towards such, while you deny life after death or any conscious continuation of the soul after physical death. I believe there is more scientific proof for 'soul survival', see here.
~*~*~
My former commentary-archive on ECT here holds.
But back to the concept of soul-death (annihilation) gone over in our former discussion... I still keep open that some souls might be able to choose 'eternal death', if they continually choose against Life, and reach a point of no return, where they undergo a corruption from whence there is no redemption, which is the second death,...but this is total dis-integration of the soul, into nothingness. The soul truly dies. Only what has eternal value continues on and merges with the Universal Soul or Consciousness, but that individual personality is forever expunged from existence, since if forfeited its life, and embraced iniquity reaping its final end in oblivion. In this context, the life or death of a soul is 'choice-conditioned'. 'Free will' is the determiner.
pj
Getting back......
Some believe so,...however there are also some who believe Jesus was more of an Essene, as the 3 primary Jewish groups at Jesus time were Pharisees, Saducees and the Essenes. Some practices and beliefs of early Christians are very similar to Essene ways, so there is possible indications of a merging or borrowing from these group-sentiments. Some believe John the Baptist, Jesus, Mary and Joseph were also Essenes, but that's another thread. There are also supports for Jesus connection with the Essenes from info. gathered from past life regressions which are most interesting. I used to have a thread on 'The Essenes: ancient and modern day schools'.
I speak of Jesus questioning the ole 'eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth' concept, and there may have been other Jewish beliefs/customs that Jesus did challenge (Sabbath day observance, etc.)...so he did re-interpret or rennovate some Jewish forms of traditional custom or belief and some common universal assumptions.
This is of course debatable, since its been held by various schools that although a soul has a beginning in time, it can take upon itself immortality, having immortality-potential, if it so chooses eternal life and meets the qualifications to partake of the divine nature. While 'God' alone has immorality originally, there is no reason to believe that he could not grant immortality to those souls who are thus qualified and willing to be like him.
I think every religious tradition has its offerings, whether how many sects within each,....one must evaluate what is available and choose the best teachings.
Indeed,....'God' alone is absolute reality itself, whether 'personalized' or 'non-personal' or any variation thereof,...while everything else is relative to that original Being, dependent on it for its existence. If a soul can accept, take on, surrender to, become merged with, transformed into the same essence or nature of Deity, then so it is.
If 'God' can put the seed of his immortality in man, then that seed can spring up and grow up in maturity, immortalizing the soul. - such is the gift of eternal life, if a soul should choose LIFE. It still remains that the spirit-essence/consciousness of 'God' is immortal in nature, and its presence in man has the potential to make immortal the soul, and naturally so. If this could not be, the promise of eternal life could not be.
I lean towards immortality as a spiritualist (a view both preferential and intuitive), so naturally gravitate towards such, while you deny life after death or any conscious continuation of the soul after physical death. I believe there is more scientific proof for 'soul survival', see here.
~*~*~
My former commentary-archive on ECT here holds.
But back to the concept of soul-death (annihilation) gone over in our former discussion... I still keep open that some souls might be able to choose 'eternal death', if they continually choose against Life, and reach a point of no return, where they undergo a corruption from whence there is no redemption, which is the second death,...but this is total dis-integration of the soul, into nothingness. The soul truly dies. Only what has eternal value continues on and merges with the Universal Soul or Consciousness, but that individual personality is forever expunged from existence, since if forfeited its life, and embraced iniquity reaping its final end in oblivion. In this context, the life or death of a soul is 'choice-conditioned'. 'Free will' is the determiner.
pj
Ben Masada
New member
Aimiel
Well-known member
But if your understanding is darkened, how great is that darkness? We have The True Light, God Himself, living in us. He guides us with His Eye.
Welcome back Timotheos
Thanks, I can't seem to stay away from TOL. Though perhaps I should.
This thread shows that the doctrine of ECT really doesn't have any biblical support and the doctrine which states that we can only have eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord is the true doctrine.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
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Revelation 14:10-11 New King James Version (NKJV)
10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
Zeke
Well-known member
Sounds like a bad B movie, What happened to all the reconciliation and not holding their sins against them stuff? I guess James and John had it right after all Luke 9:54.
KingdomRose
New member
Am I going to get purged from this thread, I wonder? I don't understand yet why I can't reply to some of the OPs.
Anyway, the doctrine of eternal conscious torment is not biblical. "Eternal torment" is, but not CONSCIOUS torment.
The main scripture used to support this ECT is Luke 16:19-31. We have learned by using sound reasoning that this parable is METAPHORICAL and could not be literal. Jesus was not teaching a literal fiery "hell." He was making a point to show the Pharisees that they were slacking in their spiritual responsibilities.
The next scripture that is thrown around to prove ECT is Revelation 20:10 & 14. This is also metaphorical and can readily be shown to be such. Is the wild beast that is to be thrown into the lake of fire a literal wild beast? No....the wild beast is the world-wide system of governments set up by men. So how is this "wild beast" supposed to be tormented? Since it is not literal, neither is the casting of "Death" and "Hades" into the lake of fire literal. Death and Hades cannot be thrown, can they? All of this means that the wild beast, Death and Hades are brought to an end. They are completely done away with, never more to rear their ugly heads, so to speak.
Man-made governments, Death and the Grave (Hades) will be things of the past.
How do we deal with the "torment" part of it? Well, the Greek word used there is from basanizo, which refers to a state of RESTRAINT. Jailers are referred to as basanistes. The same root word applies, and what do Jailers do? They cause their inmates to not be able to do anything. The prisoners are restrained. So this is how we think of "torment." It is a RESTRAINING. Satan, the wild beast, death and Hades are all restrained in that they can't do anything anymore, or, are not needed anymore.
There are numerous places that refer to the perishing of the wicked.
Those who do not know God "will pay the penalty of eternal destruction." (2 Thessalonians 1:9, NASB) What does it mean to be destroyed? I would say...nothing left.
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:16, NASB) It's interesting that my dictionary defines both "destroy" and "perish" as "to put out of existence, or, to be put out of existence." It's quite clear to me that the wicked will be put out of existence....not made to consciously suffer torture forever.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes in him shall not PERISH, but will have eternal LIFE.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is DEATH, but the gift of God is eternal LIFE in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Philippians 3:18-19
For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their end is DESTRUCTION, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds on earthly things.
Insert here any of the hundreds of other bible passages that all speak of the death and destruction of the wicked.
Revelation 13:1
And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads...
Do you think it is wise to ignore what the rest of the Bible says and take one passage of the Book of Revelation literally and completely out of context? I don't. No two people on earth since John wrote the apocalypse have even been able to agree on what the mark of the beast is. Are you really sure that you want to use that obscure passage in the symbolic apocalypse of John to overturn the rest of the Bible?
Right, I don't think there have ever been two people who were able to agree about the meaning of the Apocalypse of John.
But it is always shoved forward as absolute proof that God wants to torture people alive forever in hell. Never mind that that would directly contradict the rest of the Bible. They never once think that maybe they don't understand the symbolism of the Apocalypse of John. No, it is literal even when it talks about seven headed beasts with ten horns.
It goes to show the weakness of the doctrine of eternal torture.
He's on ignore.
it is the only book
that
gives us the 'second death'
this is something anyone should be able to understand
Yes, it is death. The second time.