The Gospel Matrix
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Tested in what ways, and by whom?
Is scripture the infallible Word Of God?
- Thread starter Bright Raven
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Tested in what ways, and by whom?
The Gospel Matrix
New member
But it's all in the same book, using unprovable historical scenarios from centuries ago to substantiate other unprovable historical scenarios from even further back.
Again:
I write my book in two parts.
The second part of the book contains historical scenarios that cannot be undeniably proven.
I use those unprovable records to validate the unprovable historical records from the first part of the book, thereby "proving" that the whole book has been "God-breathed."
Would you accept such testimony?
Using something other than circular reasoning from within only the Bible itself, how can it be undeniably proven that the entirety of the Bible has been "God-breathed?"
Zeke
Well-known member
Nothing unique about the teachings found in the Bible, To claim they were new revelations never before revealed to man is a fraudulent hoax.
Jesus was just a motif of many prior mediums the same type of teaching came through, The Spirit isn't time based like the adolescent conscience perceives things.
Interplanner
Well-known member
There are no other teachings out there that metamorphise 2500 specific allusions and quotes of the OT to shape them to Christ crucified. You are a hoax to deny that.
There are dyings and risings; there is no specific teaching that the one who came, died and rose did so because he was the OT promised righteousness of God as the act of justice of God so that 'God would be just and the justifier of the person who has faith in Jesus' Rom 3.
In short, find me a replica of Romans 1-5 out there, and we'll talk.
The authority of the Bible is not the caricature of a bunch of 'holy' men 1-2 generations later deciding what letters or accounts should be on a holy list called a holy Bible. The authority rests squarely on the unprecedented announcements of Christ after his resurrection for the following 40 days that rendered an entirely new meaning to OT passages that were thought to be about Israel.
As proof of the unprecedented nature of this, there are, as you know, amateur theology approaches that think the plain or literal meaning of those same passages are supposed to happen today or soon. Those approaches, like yourself, have completely missed the new meaning assigned by Christ to create a missional message/Gospel about justification before God, which was intended and pretty much succeeded in going to the entire world.
Interplanner
Well-known member
You have closed a circle which cannot be closed. The accounts of Christ were not done inside someone's head, nor in a corner, ch 26. They continuously reference events that are actually taking place in the area, in Judea, in Roman admin even acts by emperors (Claudius eviction of Jews in...51, I think). The accounts are therefore seamless reality. Then Christ announces the 'vaporization' of Jerusalem at the end of that generation. All the accounts of that square up.
The incoming of the Gentiles is historic fact. By the end of the 1st generation of Christians there were believers from Spain to India who were not Jewish. That is historic fact. It is not that God just spoke from heaven that there was supposed to be such. The force of 'divine decree' or 'command' at the end of Rom 16 about these believers is that the brute fact of them was the decree of God. It was also what the OT passages had said. Hundreds of those.
Your generalizations are way too general to be taken seriously. Just take one item and let's talk. How about Procurator Pilate's killing several Galileans? This kind of thing was going on all the time. The material is entirely reality-based.
Interplanner
Well-known member
For both Zeke and Gospel Matrix,
if you haven't read something as basic as McDowell's EVIDENCE THAT DEMANDS A VERDICT, what can I say? That is a classic from the 70s by a skeptical professor who became a Christian once he tried to tear it down. The next one he wrote was DANIEL IN THE CRITICS' DEN. One of the basic items that is so solid about Daniel is the 490 years. The decree from Cyrus to rebuild (2nd temple) Judaism was given about 456 AD. The vision of Daniel was expressed before that. It ran 490 years from the decree to the death of Christ, and then tagged on the destruction of the 2nd temple on the heels of the events of Christ. Nothing in the vision is 'just in the Bible.' Not Cyrus, not the decree, not Israel in Persian captivity, not the 2nd temple, not Christ, not the destruction of the 2nd temple. The destruction of the 2nd temple and Jerusalem is an official Roman coin showing the Temple candlesticks being carried into Rome on one side, and 'IUDEA CAPTA' on the other. There is a huge bas relief of the event near the Coliseum in Rome.
It was one prophecy that was foretelling (most of the time the prophets were just there to cry out for justice and holiness), and it was one which both Caiaphas (high priest during the ministry of Jesus) and Josephus (trained priest and military commander) knew was due to be fulfilled, and mentioned by each. Caiaphas thought he could circumvent it, and Josephus knew it was why there was such a large-scale revolt occurring among his people.
if you haven't read something as basic as McDowell's EVIDENCE THAT DEMANDS A VERDICT, what can I say? That is a classic from the 70s by a skeptical professor who became a Christian once he tried to tear it down. The next one he wrote was DANIEL IN THE CRITICS' DEN. One of the basic items that is so solid about Daniel is the 490 years. The decree from Cyrus to rebuild (2nd temple) Judaism was given about 456 AD. The vision of Daniel was expressed before that. It ran 490 years from the decree to the death of Christ, and then tagged on the destruction of the 2nd temple on the heels of the events of Christ. Nothing in the vision is 'just in the Bible.' Not Cyrus, not the decree, not Israel in Persian captivity, not the 2nd temple, not Christ, not the destruction of the 2nd temple. The destruction of the 2nd temple and Jerusalem is an official Roman coin showing the Temple candlesticks being carried into Rome on one side, and 'IUDEA CAPTA' on the other. There is a huge bas relief of the event near the Coliseum in Rome.
It was one prophecy that was foretelling (most of the time the prophets were just there to cry out for justice and holiness), and it was one which both Caiaphas (high priest during the ministry of Jesus) and Josephus (trained priest and military commander) knew was due to be fulfilled, and mentioned by each. Caiaphas thought he could circumvent it, and Josephus knew it was why there was such a large-scale revolt occurring among his people.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Spin doctors............
Spin doctors............
God spun?
I guess your taking a dig on my mention of a lot of 'theology' being man's own "spin" on things,...but this takes the cake.
A wonderful cocoon we weave
God equipped us with a brain, with soul-powers or reason, logic, discernment, conscience and other insights and capacities. Intellect is not to be the supreme guiding force without the inspiration or guidance of the Spirit, of course. Just because some of us 'reject' biblical inerrancy, doesn't mean we are exalting the intellect above Spirit.
Spin doctors............
God spun?
I guess your taking a dig on my mention of a lot of 'theology' being man's own "spin" on things,...but this takes the cake.
A wonderful cocoon we weave
God equipped us with a brain, with soul-powers or reason, logic, discernment, conscience and other insights and capacities. Intellect is not to be the supreme guiding force without the inspiration or guidance of the Spirit, of course. Just because some of us 'reject' biblical inerrancy, doesn't mean we are exalting the intellect above Spirit.
You wouldn't like proofs
The Gospel Matrix
New member
The "vaporization" of Jerusalem that you speak of - I'm assuming you mean His prophesy of the destruction of the temple in the Olivet Discourse? If so, remember He associated that with the time of His coming. So, unless you are a "preterist" of some sort, I'm not sure how we can use the besiegement of Jerusalem in 70 AD (which in itself is not in any way provable as actual history) as any sort of validation about the accuracy of NT prophecies. He did not return then.
In fact, all of the historical "validations" that you present here cannot truly be validated. There are just as many historians who would claim the things you say happened never happened, as there are who would agree that they did happen.
Can it be proven that Pilate killed several Galileans? In fact, can it be proven that he ever even existed? All that can be proven is what is experienced within the consciousness of the experiencer in the NOW moment.
Some say man never went to the moon, while most believe that it happened. Can either side be proven right or wrong? Obviously not, or else there would be no debate on the matter. (Obviously the same can be said of anything recorded in the Bible, including the historical existence of Jesus walking the earth.)
As it says on pages 152-153 of The Gospel Matrix:
Many who devote their studies to uncovering compositional elements of the Bible invest their conclusions in what they can gather from examining history or from what they may even refer to as undeniable historical facts.But, honest philosophical contemplation reveals that there is no such thing as an undeniable historical fact, as all that can exist regarding unquestioned certainty is that which is being undeniably experienced in the current of Now.
The Gospel Matrix
New member
How do you know what I would or would not like? I asked a legitimate, honest question.
You insert yourself into these discussions but do little, from what I've seen, but provide hasty, condescending, dismissive retorts without actually taking the time to address anything that is presented.
Zeke
Well-known member
I didn't say the teaching had no validity, just the interpretation that was historized around the third century. The facts don't support the OT or NT as being historic or that they were ever meant to be taken in that light.
The human sacrifice is a hoax, it has no valid foundation historically which like I remarked above isn't even the point or concern of the scripture. It is all about the two births dramatized in Poetic/Figurative/Types/Shadows/Allegorical/ETC.... stories Galatians 4:24-28 1Cor 15:45.
Romans is based on existing text to formulate from, Count the OT quotes, no mystery or new teaching never before taught Galatians 3:8. The Christ within wasn't a new mystery either.
Interplanner
Well-known member
You obviously don't know what was going on at Galatia or Rome or Colossae in the 5th decade where Paul had heated exchanges and trouble with the local Judaizers. Try again on that.
You're very happy about your 'facts don't support historic' but it is rubbish. You'll have to have something specific.
The Phillippian song is uncontested. Even death on a cross. Besides, what force or sting does 'being crucified' in Galatians have if it wasn't vivid imagery.
Christ within was not a major NT theme. If you mean Col 1 that's collective plural: Christ among the Gentiles. That's a theme embedded in the OT but hidden to Judaism. It's there if you know what you're looking for, says Paul. But Christ inside a person was only a way of describing personal transformation, and was spoken of very early on.
I actually don't know what the grammar of your paragraph on Romans was about.
George Affleck
TOL Subscriber
Isn't it wonderful how God works? You must be born again!
Salvation depends on faith, a gift from God, not proof; and yet, for those who have the gift, it is already proven. It is that which is being undeniably experienced by believers in the current of Now. God speaks; they hear. The truth is only validated to those who belong to Him and those who do not believe are looking for validation in all the wrong places.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:John 10:27KJV
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:36KJV
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.Matt 6:33KJV
Difference between the Urania books and the bible is that we're not wasting time since intellect mind goes to the grave at the end. Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad. Urantia philosophy is wondering if that means ketchup is a smoothie.
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It's like serving alcohol to others while being responsible for them killing while driving. I would be responsible to show proofs while you don't believe . It's better to believe in Jesus while you don't physically see him. Refuting an atheist with proofs while they deny makes them more insane. If you want proofs, send me a pm but there's a warning that you will be forced to believe while you deny at the same time and will cause mental ailments. You'll need to provide me why you really want proofs
The Gospel Matrix
New member
Hi,
You say "God speaks, they hear." By that, I'm assuming you mean Christians. But my question is, what exactly is God speaking, and/or, what exactly are Christians hearing? There are tens of thousands of denominations throughout the world who all appear to be hearing different things, do they not?
Of course, you will say "as long as the important truths are agreed upon (Christ died and resurrected, you must believe, etc.) that is what really matters." But this brings up two vital inquiries:
How can Christians be sure they have any legitimate understanding of what they consider to be "the Gospel" (and what it actually means to be "born again") when it is most obvious to the world that mega-divided Christianity does not really have any universal understanding of what its own Bible is saying?
How can Christianity justify its failure to bring the world to belief by way of its massively disassociated condition? This when Christ, your Lord, leaves no doubt that the world's failure to come to belief is directly contingent upon His Church's failure to come to unity in all things:
John 17
18 As you sent me into the world, even so I have sent them into the world. 19 For their sakes I sanctify myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth. 20 Not for these only do I pray, but for those also who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; even as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 The glory which you have given me, I have given to them; that they may be one, even as we are one; 23 I in them, and you in me, that they may be perfected into one; that the world may know that you sent me
The final plea of Christianity's Lord before being sent off to excruciating physical torture and humiliation, was for all of His followers to be united as one in Truth. So the two natural questions that now follow are:
Does the world believe in Christ?
Is His Church in complete unity as one?
And the questions that follow those are:
Who will be held ultimately accountable for the world not coming to belief?
Might there just be a problem with the entire Christian institution, and what it considers to be its understanding of "truth?"
As it says on page 10 of The Gospel Matrix:
Why do so many Christians see so many different "truths?" How can it be explained that two heavily credentialed, seemingly devout Christian theologians can spend decades studying doctrinal issues and yet come to contradicting conclusions, with each nonetheless being convinced that God has shown him the truth of what he believes? How can two churches in the same neighborhood, even across the street from one another, using the same Bible, be comprised of two separate congregations having irreconcilably opposing doctrinal beliefs? And how can two believers read the same Biblical passage and hold hopelessly opposing views of its very meaning? Is the Spirit of Truth guiding different people into different truths? Or, did Christ perhaps lie when He stated that the Spirit of Truth would be sent to guide His followers into all Truth?
Or could it be that the Spirit of Truth has been withheld from the Christian Church all along, and has yet to arrive?
Dan P ?
The Gospel Matrix
New member
Hello again!
I appreciate your offer for the private message, but where have you gained the idea that I am an "atheist" in any capacity?
Just because my posts may show themselves as being "anti-Christian establishment" should in no way come across as me not believing in the power of the living, resurrected Christ within; as opposed to waiting for some bearded fellow in a white robe to come down from the sky and rapture us away while the world goes to hell.
The Gospel Matrix
New member
I must say I am not "Dan P." Perhaps that is someone who has come to see the same things as I have regarding Christianity's widespread slumbering and entombed state?